# Doonesbury 5/30/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 30, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835 "2004-05-30T20:41:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/21 "2004-05-31T01:18:16Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Which pro-Bush guys would that be? I vote Democrat every chance I get, and I thought the Sunday strip blew chunks. Would the fact that you also draw comic strips have anything to do with your opinion? I realize that it’s gotta be hard to step back, and be objective. NOt saying you don’t hold a valid opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/22 "2004-05-31T04:06:30Z")
Memorials traditionally include a list of the names of those lost. Making his Memorial Day Sunday strip a memorial makes sense to me, and I found it a bit sobering to see the sheer volume of people lost to the war. Claiming that this strip “rips off” anything misses the point that this is how memorials have been done for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/23 "2004-05-31T04:14:25Z")
It’s not terribly original, no, but it is sobering. It’s very nearly traditional for comics to step away from the funny for Memorial or Veteran’s day observances. Peanuts, IIRC, did it all the time. A list of names gets the point across much nicer than just having his characters preach at us. ---
**Author:** ![Revedge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecae2f/32.png) [@Revedge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revedge)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/24 "2004-05-31T04:45:17Z")
Having been covering (and finding humor in) the war with his strip, I think that it is appropriate to show the real human cost. He rememebers the fallen. That is what Memorial Day is about. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/25 "2004-05-31T07:13:04Z")
With all due respect to those who say “He’s preaching to the choir”, “It’s unoriginal”, etc., there are unfortunately still a _lot_ of people in this country who act like this war is some sort of game. As far as I’m concerned, the more the point is made that _real_ people are dying, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/26 "2004-05-31T07:34:47Z")
Maybe all Trudeau wanted to do was make a nice gesture! Isn’t that enough for a comic strip? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/27 "2004-05-31T09:43:27Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The 11th of November is Armistice Day Maybe it’s changed, but it also used to be Remembrance Day. This I have on good authority from my grandmother, who remembered the end of the First World War first-hand. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/28 "2004-05-31T12:40:04Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Maybe it’s changed, but it also used to be Remembrance Day. This I have on good authority from my grandmother, who remembered the end of the First World War first-hand. On further googling, nobody seems to be able to make up their minds. Some claim ‘armistice day’ was dropped after WW2, others aren’t so sure - and the [British Legion](http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/who/remember.asp) still uses it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/29 "2004-05-31T13:06:46Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Since Trudeau is listing the names as an observance of an American holiday, Memorial Day, claiming that foreign readers might be insulted is nonsense. Actually, he’s doing it to sell his comic strip. And since he’s selling that comic strip internationally, he’d do well to remember his international audience. > [@Otto](#): > > Do other nations which have lost troops have the equivalent of Memorial Day? Would you feel justified in claiming insult if their dead were named in observation of their holiday and American dead weren’t? I guess you’ve never heard of Remembrance Day, nor visited any war memorials or military cemetaries in Britain? I feel the two at [Cox & Forkum](http://www.coxandforkum.com) are rather more poignant. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/30 "2004-05-31T13:52:35Z")
**Chefguy,** the link you first gave is dynamic, so one day later, it points to a different cartoon. [This link](http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20040530) should be the Memorial Day cartoon all the time. My opinion – I think any president that wants to go to war again should be required by law to slowly read every name on this list before ordering any troops anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/31 "2004-05-31T16:35:49Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Would the fact that you also draw comic strips have anything to do with your opinion? I realize that it’s gotta be hard to step back, and be objective. NOt saying you don’t hold a valid opinion. Well, it gives me an awareness of craft. _Doonesbury_ on a bad day is still better than most strips on a good day, but this is _Doonesbury_ on a bad day nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/32 "2004-05-31T19:20:51Z")
I hope this isn’t too far off topic, but that Cox & Forkum cartoon made me think: “He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.” The soldier is shown in the cartoon not as just an innocent person, but represented as a rifle with helmet and boots. Somehow, no matter how justified a war might be, it will eventually lead to this outcome for some, maybe many. Why should this come as a surprise to any government? No, I don’t blame the individual soldier or even the individual – after all, one man’s brave freedom fighter is another’s bloodthirsty terrorist. I am looking at the larger philosophical picture. Something is wrong with mankind if it uses warfare as the main method of resolving conflicts. And there is something wrong with world leadership if it thinks this is what defines the crowning achievements of civilization. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/33 "2004-05-31T19:24:39Z")
I think **Revedge** has it; the last few days of _Doonesbury_ have been making light of casualties/injuries in Iraq, to the point where BD just missed a chance to catch a USO show. Between that frivolity and the Memorial Day weekend, a sobeer look at the real cost of war seems appropriate. I wasn’t moved one way or another with the strip, but I’m glad he didn’t make a joke out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/34 "2004-05-31T20:12:37Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Actually, he’s doing it to sell his comic strip. And since he’s selling that comic strip internationally, he’d do well to remember his international audience. Whether he’s selling his strip internationally or not (and I don’t know that he is; can anyone confirm either that Doonesbury is syndicated outside the US or that the syndicate tries to sell it outside the US?) the simple fact is that Doonesbury is an American strip. The bulk of its audience is American, its political POV is American, its focus is American. If it does have an international base, that doesn’t affect my point at all that Memorial Day is an _American_ holiday and slamming GT for observing an _American_ holiday by listing dead _Americans_ is stupid. Are you equally as pissed off at, say, the Vietnam Memorial for not listing off the dead from other countries? I can’t imagine that anyone other than the most hypersensitive of all possible twits would be insulted that GT listed American names only. > [@](#): > > I guess you’ve never heard of Remembrance Day, nor visited any war memorials or military cemetaries in Britain? No I hadn’t specifically heard of Remembrance Day before this thread which might be why I asked about it. Other people managed to note its existence without being jackasses about it. Neither have I visited any military cemeteries or memorials in other countries. If there are names of American dead listed on some of those memorials, that’s swell. That some other memorial might list some non-native dead doesn’t make the idea that GT is in the wrong for only listing Americans any less asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/35 "2004-05-31T20:16:23Z")
> [@qts](#): > > I feel the two at [Cox & Forkum](http://www.coxandforkum.com) are rather more poignant. Oh my god, the first cartoon shows a girl planting an American flag! How can you find that poignant when it insultingly omits the flags of every other country that’s lost people in a war? And the second one shows an American Revolutionary soldier with a present-day American soldier! It insultingly ignores all the other armies in the world! I mean really, you do get that by citing those two cartoons you completely undermine your own point about GT supposedly insulting an international audience, right? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/36 "2004-05-31T20:52:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Oh my god, the first cartoon shows a girl planting an American flag! How can you find that poignant when it insultingly omits the flags of every other country that’s lost people in a war? And the second one shows an American Revolutionary soldier with a present-day American soldier! It insultingly ignores all the other armies in the world! > > I mean really, you do get that by citing those two cartoons you completely undermine your own point about GT supposedly insulting an international audience, right? I think you’re missing the reality of the matter, that most of the world perceive it to be America’s war, with other countries only involved because of blind admiration of the power of the US, or because of coercion. And we’re not so stupid as to not realise that it’s the US forces that dominate on the ground, and therefore they are taking the brunt of the casulalties. Furthermore, unlike Doonesbury, I’m not aware of Cox & Forkun being syndicated internationally (although I’m prepared to be proven wrong). ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/37 "2004-05-31T22:25:02Z")
It was for Memorial Day. Trudeau can hardly be blamed for remembering the dead. That’s what this day is all about. The fact that he chose to do it while 90% of America was out barbecuing say a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/38 "2004-05-31T23:35:50Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I think you’re missing the reality of the matter, that most of the world perceive it to be America’s war, with other countries only involved because of blind admiration of the power of the US, or because of coercion. And we’re not so stupid as to not realise that it’s the US forces that dominate on the ground, and therefore they are taking the brunt of the casulalties. > > Furthermore, unlike Doonesbury, I’m not aware of Cox & Forkun being syndicated internationally (although I’m prepared to be proven wrong). Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make here. **qts** jumped on my shit for critiquing his suggestion that an American cartoonist somehow insulted his international readers by listing off American dead for an American holiday. He then offered as more poignant alternatives two cartoons which use exclusively American imagery. It seems rather unreasonable to attack GT as being exclusionary to the point of insult for focusing on Americans on America’s Memorial Day and then point to two other America-centric cartoons as part of that attack. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/39 "2004-06-01T00:29:57Z")
Much of what I’m thinking about the posters in this thread can only be said in the Pit, so let me be clear. It’s Memorial Day. These are the names of the soldiers who gave their lives in service to their nation That’s it. Period. Those of you who are attempting to hijack this strip to further pro- or anti-Bush agendas should be ashamed of yourselves. For God’s sake, can’t we just have a day to remember our military dead? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/40 "2004-06-01T00:33:44Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make here. **qts** jumped on my shit for critiquing his suggestion that an American cartoonist somehow insulted his international readers by listing off American dead for an American holiday. He then offered as more poignant alternatives two cartoons which use exclusively American imagery. It seems rather unreasonable to attack GT as being exclusionary to the point of insult for focusing on Americans on America’s Memorial Day and then point to two other America-centric cartoons as part of that attack. Yes, I think I may have been getting confused by layers of cynicism and sarcasm …things I should know all about 😉 > [@gobear](#): > > These are the names of the soldiers who gave their lives in service to their nation But the problem with this war is the same as with the adoption of the Falklands conflict into British remembrance - a significant proportion of people do not accept that _anything_ was being done in their national interest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835.md?page=3)