# Doonesbury 5/30/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 30, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835 "2004-05-30T20:41:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/41 "2004-06-01T01:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > But the problem with this war is the same as with the adoption of the Falklands conflict into British remembrance - a significant proportion of people do not accept that anything was being done in their national interest. Irrelevant, in the present context. These are men and women who answered the call of duty and laid down their life in service to that call. Regardless of whether they should have been called in the first place, that’s a great sacrifice, and they should be remembered and honored for that sacrifice. If a war is unjust or pointless, then it may stand as a criticism of the leadership of the countries fighting it. But it does nothing to lessen the sacrifice of those out in the field fighting and sometimes dying. I don’t think the Doonesbury strip was funny or clever, and neither do I think that it was trying to be either of those things. But it is relevant and appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/42 "2004-06-01T02:06:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Irrelevant, in the present context. These are men and women who answered the call of duty and laid down their life in service to that call. Regardless of whether they should have been called in the first place, that’s a great sacrifice, and they should be remembered and honored for that sacrifice. ‘Sacrifice’, ‘Laid down their life’, ‘call of duty’ are all highly loaded terms from a century of propganda. I find it highly patronising, and very disturbing, that anyone should expect us to ‘remember and honour’ those who have died, when we still have so little idea of why they dies, or what the outcome will be. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/43 "2004-06-01T02:16:37Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > ‘Sacrifice’, ‘Laid down their life’, ‘call of duty’ are all highly loaded terms from a century of propganda. > > I find it highly patronising, and very disturbing, that anyone should expect us to ‘remember and honour’ those who have died, when we still have so little idea of why they dies, or what the outcome will be. Let’s examine the possibities: 1. You find out, sometime in the future, that the war was trumped up by the powers that be–you then think about the war dead …how??? 2. You find out, sometime in the future, that the war was justified. You then think about the war dead…how??? Is there likely to be a difference how you feel 20-50 years from now about ordinary people who lost their lives? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/44 "2004-06-01T02:27:51Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > 1. You find out, sometime in the future, that the war was trumped up by the powers that be–you then think about the war dead …how??? > > 2. You find out, sometime in the future, that the war was justified. You then think about the war dead…how??? In either situation, my feelings would be very very different than for the (excuse the topicality for the example) D-Day veterans. Firstly, they’d all signed up voluntarily. I don’t feel as immediate a pang of guilt for someone who’s signed up as for the enlisted of the two world wars. And by the way, (1) is true. Any evidence the now emerges to confirm (2) is highly suspect. But that’s for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/45 "2004-06-01T12:01:15Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Let’s examine the possibities: > > 1. You find out, sometime in the future, that the war was trumped up by the powers that be–you then think about the war dead …how??? Victims of one man’s evil. > [@](#): > > 1. You find out, sometime in the future, that the war was justified. You then think about the war dead…how??? Casualties of war, probably. It would be easier if half of them hadn’t been killed by their own side, and easier still if Iraq had been posing a visible threat to other nations when war was declared. Odds are pretty good that I won’t have to make that decision, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/46 "2004-06-01T13:58:49Z")
As may be. They still deserve to be remembered. Hell, they probably deserve to be remembered all the MORE if they’re just ‘victims of one evil man’. Or do we only choose to remember those who died is so-called ‘just’ wars? Do we skip the dead in these wars: War of 1812 Mexican War Spanish American War Vietnam Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/47 "2004-06-01T15:30:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Or do we only choose to remember those who died is so-called ‘just’ wars? Every war is unjust on at least one side. Should we then not honor any war dead at all? And it’s not war propaganda to say that those men and women died serving their country. That’s just the simple factual truth. Now, if I had said that they died to preserve our way of life, or that they gave the ultimate sacrifice for a worthy cause, there’s some propaganda value there. But there’s no denying that they’re dead, and no denying that their deaths came in service to their country. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/48 "2004-06-02T17:44:09Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make here. **qts** jumped on my shit for critiquing his suggestion that an American cartoonist somehow insulted his international readers by listing off American dead for an American holiday. He then offered as more poignant alternatives two cartoons which use exclusively American imagery. It seems rather unreasonable to attack GT as being exclusionary to the point of insult for focusing on Americans on America’s Memorial Day and then point to two other America-centric cartoons as part of that attack. Bunkum. The two cartoons showed soldiers. In neither cartoon are the soldiers identified as American. You do know that foreign nationals serve in the US military, don’t you? Sure the soldiers are dressed as American soldiers - what do you expect? - but they stand for all. Whereas Doonesbury lists only the American soldiers and only those who died in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/49 "2004-06-02T18:28:53Z")
Preach it, **gobear**. Yes, we all know Trudeau is against the war. But look at the strip _on its own_. We have a U.S. artist paying tribute to the U.S. dead in the war his country is currently fighting. The only message he states is “In Memoriam.” On Memorial Day. It could not be more proper or fitting. Whether you support or oppose the war, it is absolutely the right thing (particularly on that day) to remember those who gave their lives in the armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/50 "2004-06-02T18:57:25Z")
> [@qts](#): > > In neither cartoon are the soldiers identified as American. You do know that foreign nationals serve in the US military, don’t you? Sure the soldiers are dressed as American soldiers - what do you expect? - but they stand for all. Doesn’t that sort of thing hurt your brain? I had an uncle that could bend his wrist back far enough that his fingernails met his forearm. He’s got nothing on you, though. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835/51 "2004-06-02T20:20:08Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Bunkum. The two cartoons showed soldiers. In neither cartoon are the soldiers identified as American. You do know that foreign nationals serve in the US military, don’t you? Sure the soldiers are dressed as American soldiers - what do you expect? - but they stand for all. Whereas Doonesbury lists only the American soldiers and only those who died in Iraq. Let me see if I understand. They are soldiers dressed as Americans, but you think they might not be American soldiers? You think that foreign nationals who serve in the US military are not properly referred to as “American soldiers”? You think that cartoons depicting people dressed as American soldiers are less Ameri-centric than a list of American dead? Oh forget it. It may not hurt your brain to think it but it hurts my brain to think about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doonesbury-5-30-04/247835.md?page=2)