# Doper Diplomacy - Fall and Winter 2002 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 28, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858 "2002-08-28T01:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/641 "2002-11-11T09:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > But it looked like France and Russia remained allied against Austria at the same time as they were taking different sides with respect to England - a perfectly sensible arrangement, actually. This is true, and while it is sensible, its also extremely frustrating. More so since I kept getting the ass-end of the deal losing 3 units to destruction as a result. The original agreement was an alliance against Austria and Russia’s staying out of the conflict in England entirely. His destrustion of my fleets in England and taking of my SCs made it impossible for me to swing extra fleets to the Med. Thats what essentially caused the stalemate in the Med as opposed to me being in a position to gain ground there. I think the game would have been much more interesting and dynamic as a 3-way battle, as opposed to a 4-way. > [@](#): > > Omni, you can’t be too mad at Steve - his play, and his willingness to be your ally where you otherwise had none, saved you from an Austrian win. He may have helped prevent your conquest of England, but that was more or less stalled out anyway. Well, he allied with me which saved him from elimination. So its not like he was being altruistic. While our alliance helped against Austria in the north, it crippled me in the south. I never quite understood how that was of benefit to him, short of needling me. > [@](#): > > What I don’t understand is why, sometime during the past few years, you didn’t try to negotiate a deal with England, where you and Russia would agree to let him live, and he’d agree not to expand, so you and Russia could focus on Austria, and he’d be included in any DIAS. Especially once Italy’s fleets died, the Med was yours if you wanted it. Three or four fleets there instead of two, and you’d have had the Adriatic and the Aegean open to you, opening a whole 'nother front. Well, I’d tried in the past to reforge alliances with England but it wasn’t happening, occasionally my emails went unresponded to. Can’t say thats suprising, and I’d hoped to affect the same net effect by simply eliminating him and swing the fleets to the Med. As it turned out I lost 2 fleets that needed to be replaced from Brest as opposed to swung south like I wanted. I can’t say the odds would have been very good of him actually _not_ expanding once I had my flank exposed. Believe me, I wanted nothing more than to effectively challenge in the Med, but it just didn’t work out. > [@](#): > > I had been trying most of the game to get Russia to help me go after France. I would get at least non-interference allowing me to take Munich, and support Russia in taking and keeping Kiel. He would have none of it. He wanted all of his country back, including Sevastapol. He also wouldn’t bite on my suggestion that he go after England, as he could get most of the big pieces and leave France out in the cold. Well, I think that failed because he realized that if you were able to move against us in Munich theres no way anyone could have out paced you to 18 SCs. Thats the only thing that kept me from stabbing into Scandanavia and perhaps forcing him to disband that fleet that gave me such trouble. Even if he did stab me and get a SC or two, or England, he’d have no place to build from them. Why would he make extra enemies? My primary thought was if I could eliminate England while you eliminated Turkey, and I propped up Russia against you, it would have been very interesting in a 3-way race to victory. Most likely it would have been a more equitable DIAS, but who knows. I’m curious what the hell happened between Russia and Turkey in Fall 1905…why didn’t you guys cooperate and get Austria out of Moscow? Seems like you would have both stood and excellent chance of advancing when Austria failed to build and was stuck with another front. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/642 "2002-11-11T12:29:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Omniscient \* > \*\* > I’m curious what the hell happened between Russia and Turkey in Fall 1905…why didn’t you guys cooperate and get Austria out of Moscow? Seems like you would have both stood and excellent chance of advancing when Austria failed to build and was stuck with another front. \*\* I can’t say for certain, since I don’t always have total recall, but I’d guess it was because if I cut his support in Sevastopol then Austria would have taken Smyrna and net would have not lost a unit. Of course this might have been better for Russia but would have ensured the elimination of Turkey. Now, where I _really_ screwed up was the following Spring. I was to pinch Ankara and Bulgaria on his Army in Constantinople, while moving to Sev to cut his support to Moscow. If he went for Smyrna, then his Army would be destroyed. The proper move was F Ank-Con, F Bul(ec) S F Ank-Con. But I woke up at 3-4 in the morning, a day before orders were due, and thought that orders were due and wrote them up quickly (hate those 5 am deadlines). The next day I was busy (plus tired) and didn’t go back to check my orders. So Steve gained Moscow but I misordered against Constantinople. Had I ordered correctly then I could simply have pushed his fleet from Smyrna back into the Aegean and gained an important new build, in addition to pushing the Austrians out of Moscow. But alas, twas not to be. That one would have really changed the complexion of the game, and probably the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/643 "2002-11-11T12:36:43Z")
**Weirddave** , I must say that’s a nice site. Like the animation, the flags and the public Press area. That could add a whole new dimension. Good job! On a different note, I must say I’m not wild about the 1 day dip periods. This is getting into a complex area with some alliances built on sand, and since the Winter result came out last night (I didn’t see it until just before midnight) the net is that I have about 1-2 hours to conduct Diplomacy, if I don’t eat. Monday’s are especially busy and this week is worse than most since my boss is in town from London (Egham, actually). Would any of the other powers in **Dip 1046** be interested in seeing an extension until Wednesday morning? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/644 "2002-11-11T13:49:53Z")
Sure, what the hell. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/645 "2002-11-11T14:25:23Z")
Wednesday it is. Wed/Friday OK with everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/646 "2002-11-12T16:55:57Z")
1046 orders due tomorrow morning. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/647 "2002-11-13T13:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*I like the animated map. It was kinda fun watching a Russian army get all the way to Brest via the overland route. \*\* Not if you’re England it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/648 "2002-11-13T14:19:24Z")
I thought it was beautiful, like watching a blanket of fresh snow cover the countryside. In fact, I almost shed a tear of joy while watching it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/649 "2002-11-13T15:37:08Z")
As long as no one writes his name in the snow, Shibb. ---
**Author:** ![ppg\_shg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@ppg\_shg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ppg_shg)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/650 "2002-11-13T16:46:09Z")
I replayed the animation over and over, but the result was always the same, Austria kept getting smaller and smaller. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/651 "2002-11-13T18:45:00Z")
I am now taking orders to join the ‘Shibb is a bastard’ society. Charter members get this handsome cloissonne pin, a certificate of membership, and a knife to stick in Russia’s back should the opportunity arise. But that was pretty funny, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/652 "2002-11-13T20:54:39Z")
Hello, Mr. Pot. It’s me, the Kettle. What were you saying? It’s always this way with the English. When they do it is the “glorious expansion of the Realm”. When it’s a country east of the Rhein it’s seen as “naked aggression”. Gimme a break already. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/653 "2002-11-13T22:00:58Z")
Hey, lookit this - my thread’s on its 14th page! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/654 "2002-11-14T01:08:23Z")
1046 is updated, including new Press. Next moves due Friday morning. I also created a special gif file just for ppg. You can find it [here](http://fff.fathom.org/pages/Walcher/McGeeanimation.gif). ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/655 "2002-11-14T03:53:27Z")
Alliances built on sand, alright. Yeah, **Shibb** ’s a bastard, but so are **Abe** and **McG**. What’s an honorable ruler to do? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/656 "2002-11-14T05:06:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*Alliances built on sand, alright. > > Yeah, **Shibb** ’s a bastard, but so are **Abe** and **McG**. What’s an honorable ruler to do? \*\* “They drew first blood, not me…” - Rambo ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/657 "2002-11-14T13:33:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*Alliances built on sand, alright. > > Yeah, **Shibb** ’s a bastard, but so are **Abe** and **McG**. What’s an honorable ruler to do? \*\* Partner with a glorious maritime leader, obviously. How exactly are you guys going to resolve that mess down there? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/658 "2002-11-15T18:40:50Z")
Fall results are in. I need a retreat from Russia. Updates [here](http://fff.fathom.org/pages/Walcher/Diplomacy.html). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/659 "2002-11-15T19:24:59Z")
Shibb. I’m tired of this. Make peace or it’s full scale war…not this little sniping. ---
**Author:** ![ppg\_shg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@ppg\_shg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ppg_shg)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/660 "2002-11-15T19:37:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Hey, lookit this - my thread’s on its 14th page! 🙂 \*\* Is this just so I can watch my painful missteps over and over, or so I can read all of the lovely press releases about me? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858.md?page=34)