# Doper Diplomacy - Fall and Winter 2002 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 28, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858 "2002-08-28T01:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/81 "2002-09-11T13:15:56Z")
Ah, good to see a little chatter going on here - warms the heart of this GM. Especially glad to see outside kibitzers - welcome to the peanut gallery, **Go alien**! > [@](#): > > Do you guys play this in real life? That was my long-ago introduction to the game, **Wikkit** , but I last played IRL in 1985. It’s difficult to get 7 Dippers together IRL for most of a day, once you’re out of school! IMHO, Dip and the Web are perfect for each other. It’s easier to get a game together on the Web, and the game can be played at a pace that fits better with the rest of one’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/82 "2002-09-11T14:31:07Z")
I agree with **RT** about the web being the ideal medium. I only played FtF once, and, while getting together for an afternoon with friends is certainly fun, I think the game is better played via correspondence. 1. You don’t know who’s negotiating with whom. It seems like if you are eg. allied with France against England, and you see France and England spend most of the negotiation period talking in a corner, it would certainly blunt the effectiveness of their stab. 2. Negotiating via emails seems more “real” in the sense that there is always the possibility of misunderstanding the tone of a letter, or waiting to see if someone is going to respond to your letter. It injects just the right amount of uncertainty, in my opinion. 3. I never played via snail mail, but I gotta assume that most games would take 8 months or more to finish. That’s a lot of time for major life changes to occur. 4. It’s easier to stab someone in the back if he isn’t your ride home. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/83 "2002-09-11T16:57:24Z")
Yeah, good thing you aren’t looking for a ride home, **Abe**. You might have gotten left off at the woods instead. I was telling a friend who just moved back into town about our Dip games. His response, “That’s no fun. You don’t get to see the look on their face when they’ve just been stabbed.” Well, that’s about to be expected from someone who spent his entire military career along the Korean DMZ. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/84 "2002-09-11T18:32:30Z")
I’ve got to ask for a clarification: It’s _retreats_ we’re not allowed to discuss, not _builds_, right? Talking today before builds are in is cool? If it’s not, uh… I’m a big fat cheater. But I’m sorry and I won’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/85 "2002-09-11T18:55:42Z")
That’s RT’s call. Technically neither should feature negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/86 "2002-09-11T19:00:27Z")
As a penalty **WL** should be forced to relinquish Austria to us. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/87 "2002-09-11T19:14:01Z")
I think Abe might have something to say about that. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/88 "2002-09-11T19:42:18Z")
Shoot, I reviewed the rules on the first page of this thread and I realized I’m totally in the wrong. I misremembered what had been decided prior to the game start. Well, none of the emails I sent out this morning were specifically discussing the diplomacy of anyone’s builds. I was just eager to get going on 1902. So, sorry if this is a problem. I sent in my builds this morning right after the Fall turn was adjudicated, so **RT** , if you’d consider those my official orders I’d appreciate it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/89 "2002-09-11T20:00:57Z")
I think the gist of **RT’s** message was that there’s no way to enforce negotiations when there is a one day delay, so it would sort of be winked at. Of course, my builds were pretty damn easy (not that I’m complaining). And **JC** and **Shibb** the only part of Austria that you are going to see is the dirt tracked in by my armies as they march in victory through your capitals. Plus the mudballs thrown by jeering children at the columns of Italian and Turkish prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/90 "2002-09-11T20:35:53Z")
Better treatment than they’d get from the Russians. Our jeering children throw feces and molotovs. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/91 "2002-09-11T20:51:08Z")
From the first page of the thread: _Retreats:_ no discussion. You’re supposed to make your retreats more or less immediately on finding out that you have retreats to make. So your first email about retreats should be to me, telling me where you’re retreating to. _Builds/Disbands:_ The period between fall adjudication and the winter move is not technically a diplomacy period, so the occurrence of any diplomacy should be invisible to the GM. Which means there should be no reason for lateness with those builds and disbands, if you get my drift. I don’t _think_ that needs clarification, given the difference between the two. But if it does, I can always provide some. Just get me those builds tonight, chillun! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/92 "2002-09-11T20:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by_\* Abe Babe \*\*\* > I think the gist of **RT’s** message was that there’s no way to enforce negotiations when there is a one day delay, so it would sort of be winked at. Well that sort of subtlety, clearly, is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/93 "2002-09-12T10:22:29Z")
Be that as it may, [Winter 1901 builds](http://www.wooleysark.com/dip/rtfirefly/) are now in the record book. Welcome to Spring 1902, please drive carefully, especially in crowded traffic like the Balkans, Scandinavia, and the France/Germany/Lowlands area. Signal your turns, but not your stabs. Go to it! ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/94 "2002-09-12T11:26:10Z")
Interesting, interesting. The overall position is dominated by the German-Russian alliance. Without some sort of accommodation, both **Weirddave** and **Omniscient** are vulnerable. **Omniscient** has failed to capitalise on the Iberian bases, **Jonathon Chance** on the North African. **Abe Babe** has held **Jonathon Chance** and **ShibbOleth** but is vulnerable to **ShibbOleth** ’s new fleet in the short term, to **ShibbOleth** and **Maeglin** allying in the long term. My advice (based on years of being crap at Dippy) is: **Weirddave** : Make friends with **Omniscient** , otherwise your days are numbered and short. ☹ **Omniscient** : Make friends with **Weirddave** and/or **Jonathon Chance** , otherwise the German-Russian steamroller will squash you after **Weirddave** expires. Not collecting even one Iberian supply centre may cost you. ☹ **White Lightning** : Assuage any of **Omniscient** ’s doubts for a clear run at **Weirddave**. **Jonathon Chance** could get irritating. 😃 **Jonathon Chance** : Missing a build was a bad result. You will get Tunis, but maybe at the cost of losing control of the Ionian Sea. Trieste is invulnerable, too many Austrian armies. The obvious course is to keep friendly with **Omniscient** to cover your back and keep hammering the Russians and/or Germans. The non-obvious course is to make friends with **Abe Babe** and go for **Omniscient**. **White Lightning** will help, I’m sure. :smack: **Abe Babe** : With a neutral **White Lightning** and **Maeglin** , you can hold **Jonathon Chance** off for ever. **ShibbOleth** will be harder, especially when that new fleet threatens Greece. But you will end up dead in the water, going nowhere as **White Lightning** and **Maeglin** romp home. Make friends with either **Jonathon Chance** or **ShibbOleth** , or preferably both. Attack **Maeglin** with **ShibbOleth** , let **Jonathon Chance** attack **Omniscient**. You need a thneed. Sorry, a friend. :eek: **ShibbOleth** : You cannot make headway against **Maeglin**. Make friends. Outflank **Abe Babe** in Greece and cover **Jonathon Chance** ’s taking of Tunis. He will be desperate to get a base from somewhere. Alternatively, make friends again with **Abe Babe** , get them to help you against **Maeglin**. I’m sure they would like to get hold of Warsaw. With you attacking both **Maeglin** and **Abe Babe** , and them not fighting each other, you have a long, slow, slog to make headway. :mad: **Maeglin** : Your aggressive anti-English build suggests that **Weirddave** ’s possession of Norway looks short term. But watch out for **Abe Babe**. He has two shiny new armies and nowhere for them to go. Keep **Jonathon Chance** on your side to pressure **Abe Babe** while helping **Abe Babe** against **ShibbOleth** and your southern border is secure. **Abe Babe** and **ShibbOleth** falling out was a good result for you. 😃 All the above advice is free. No liability is accepted for anybody following any of it and getting stuffed. Gratitude, champagne (if pressed, I will take non-vintage) and large cash donations (GBP, USD or EUR) will be accepted if anybody is foolish enough to follow it and lucky enough to win. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/95 "2002-09-12T11:28:30Z")
**Jonathon** , should be: “The obvious course is to keep friendly with Omniscient to cover your back and keep hammering the **Austrians** and/or Germans.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/96 "2002-09-12T12:40:57Z")
**Go alien** - it might be easier for the reader if you use country names rather than player names, especially in extensive comments. I know I still have to pause for a second to associate players with countries - and I’m the GM. Repeated 55 times, it’s a bit of a speed bump in reading your post. For me, at least; others’ MMV. I see a fairly even game shaping up, FWIW. Most everybody seems to have both strengths and weaknesses. Assuming competent play, nobody’s on the verge of being wiped out. Should make for some interesting times, and that’s what we play the game for. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/97 "2002-09-12T12:55:56Z")
That’s a mighty big assumption, there, RT! ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/98 "2002-09-12T12:59:40Z")
**RT** , point taken. Will make things a lot easier. So here goes. Interesting, interesting. The overall position is dominated by the German-Russian alliance. Without some sort of accommodation, both England and France are vulnerable. France has failed to capitalise on the Iberian bases, Italy on the North African. Austria has held Italy and Turkey but is vulnerable to Turkey’s new fleet in the short term, to Turkey and Russia allying in the long term. My advice (based on years of being crap at Dippy) is: England: Make friends with France, otherwise your days are numbered and short. France: Make friends with England and/or Italy, otherwise the German/Russian steamroller hits you after England expires. Not collecting even one Iberian supply centre may cost you. Germany: Assuage any of France’s doubts for a clear run at England. Italy could get irritating. Italy: Missing a build was a bad result. You will get Tunis, but maybe at the cost of losing control of the Ionian Sea. Trieste is invulnerable, too many Austrian armies. The obvious course is to keep friendly with France to cover your back and keep hammering the Austrians and/or Germans. The non-obvious course is to make friends with Austria and go for France. Germany will help, I’m sure. Austria: With a neutral Germany and Russia, you can hold Italy off for ever. Turkey will be harder, especially when that new fleet threatens Greece. But you will end up dead in the water, going nowhere as Germany and Russia romp home. Make friends with either Italy or Turkey, or preferably both. Attack Russia with Turkey, let Italy attack France. You need a thneed. Sorry, a friend. Turkey: You cannot make headway against Russia. Make friends. Outflank Austria in Greece and cover Italy’s taking of Tunis. He will be desperate to get a base from somewhere. Alternatively, make friends again with Austria, get them to help you against Russia. I’m sure they would like to get hold of Warsaw. With you attacking both Russia and Austria, and them not fighting each other, you have a long, slow, slog to make headway. Russia: Your aggressive anti-English build suggests that England’s possession of Norway looks short term. But watch out for Austria. He has two shiny new armies and nowhere for them to go. Keep Italy on your side to pressure Austria while helping Austria against Turkey and your southern border is secure. Austria and Turkey falling out was a good result for you. All the above advice is free. No liability is accepted for anybody following any of it and getting stuffed. Gratitude, champagne (if pressed, I will take non-vintage) and large cash donations will be accepted if anybody is foolish enough to follow it and lucky enough to win. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/99 "2002-09-12T13:22:54Z")
You forgot the part about “Don’t worry about Austria. He’s clearly happy in his Alpine/Balkan retreat and is not concerned with world domination. You can trust him.” ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858/100 "2002-09-12T13:25:12Z")
It’s not so clear to me that Italy has to lose the Ionian Sea just to get Tunis. That Austrian fleet may have other concerns…namely, Turkey. I definitely agree with RTFirefly…I don’t think anyone will be leaving the board anytime soon. England and Italy both have things to worry about, but Germany and Austria are going to have a very hard breaching their defenses without more fleets. I think Russia is the player to watch for the moment. He’s got momentum in the north right now, but that could run out in 1902, and where does he go then? The Russia-Germany-Austria triangle will get really interesting…“Why yes, I am a five-or-six-centre power sitting right on your back door, but you can trust me. Really.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-diplomacy-fall-and-winter-2002/125858.md?page=6)