# Doper Lawyers - how did you get your first job? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013 "2005-04-06T08:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/1 "2005-04-06T08:29:28Z")
My Learned Friends (particularly Aussie lawyers), I recently completed a BA/LLB. I’m currently applying like mad for graduate solicitor positions. I’ve sent out about 15 applications, and scored a grand total of ONE interview with a law firm. I’ve got good grades in both my Arts and Law degrees, I worked part-time as a law clerk in a firm for nearly four years while I was at university, and I come across as well-presented, articulate, discreet, empathetic, etc. etc. in interviews (so I’m told). I wear a natty pinstripe suit and silk blouse to these aforementioned interviews, and I don’t have three-heads or a vestigial tail or anything frightening like that. How did you go about getting a legal job when you were in my shoes? Tell me how you did it, for God’s sake. I’ve got 2 degrees, a friendly personality and no **graduate** legal experience. To get this experience, I need a graduate position. To get the graduate position, I need graduate experience, etc. etc… ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/2 "2005-04-06T18:25:18Z")
I clerked here. I got the clerk job through a job posting at my law school. Sorry, that answer won’t be very useful. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/3 "2005-04-06T18:26:40Z")
Same here. Good luck, though. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![cj\_finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@cj\_finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cj_finn)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/4 "2005-04-06T18:39:29Z")
Well, if you are a male, then the silk blouse might not help matters . . . I got my first clerking job through a simple application process. Well, simple is not really the word as that was the 4th or 5th interview I was at. What helped is that I was good friends with the guy currently in that position. He recommended me as his replacement. The second job was networked from the first, and the third from the second. I’m breaking the pattern on the current job change (2 weeks from now) in that I actually got this fourth job through [Monster.com](http://Monster.com). (It helps when you don’t actually need a job.) So, the answer, at least for me, is networking. Just keep in mind that it does get easier as time goes by. That first job is the hardest. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/5 "2005-04-06T20:59:12Z")
I’m in the States, and I got my job the same way as **Random** and **Cliffy** did. Are there networking opportunities? Bar associations or solicitor associations (some kind of professional association) where you can meet people? I don’t know enough about how Australian law firms work to make a good recommendation, but I wish you the best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/6 "2005-04-06T21:51:19Z")
Well, I’m a septic (not aseptic), and my first job was law clerk to a federal judge. The application process is very lengthy, and they look for applicants far in advance. The joke is that eventually they’re going to be recruiting them in undergrad. Anyway, I had the job offer fairly far in advance of finishing law school, in the summer of my second year. I had good letters of recommendation from professors the judge knew personally, which sure didn’t hurt. However, most of my friends got jobs following graduation by the old fashioned methods of beating the bricks, keeping an ear to the ground, putting their noses to the grindstone, and overusing cliched metaphors. Figure out what you would find interesting and investigate the hell out of entry level positions there. Public service is always good. Hit up your law school’s job placement department. Use contacts as much as possible – if you have an Aussie version of a Young Lawyer’s Association to socialize with, join it and get to know others in your area in your relative position. Keep turning over rocks and eventually you’ll find a nice juicy worm. Then you can sue it. ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/7 "2005-04-07T04:05:39Z")
Thanks so much for your replies. Yep, it seems that contacts and networking are basically the only way at the moment. I’ve been sending out applications to all the law firms in my city that specialise in any of the areas of practice that I’m interested in, but the “strike rate” is not very good at all. (Apparently it’s the Law of Supply and Demand - hundreds of law grads, tens of jobs - why hire a grad when you can hire a lawyer with 5 years’ experience?) In terms of contacts, none of mine are very viable - they’re either friends of mine who are just junior lawyers and thus have liittle influence, or they’re like my friend’s uncle who used to be a barrister but retired ten years ago. ☹ It sometimes feels like I’m never going to get a proper job - were all those years spent studying just a waste? Very frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/8 "2005-04-07T05:20:06Z")
Hang in there. I started law school at a time when people said, good luck getting a job, but it turned out just fine. > [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > why hire a grad when you can hire a lawyer with 5 years’ experience? Because you are potential – they can take you on and train you up right, rather than having to live with someone else’s training errors. (And you are half the price of a 5th year lawyer.) Don’t get discouraged. Keep pounding away. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/9 "2005-04-07T07:19:45Z")
Hi **Sarah**. I’m in much the same boat as you at the mo (Aussie, law student, recently gone back to uni after law clerking), but I haven’t graduated yet. Can I ask a couple of questions? Are you talking about applying for articles, or have you already got a practising certificate? If it’s articles, have you ever done any seasonals? What about the firm where you have been clerking - why won’t they give you an articles interview? Which state are you in? ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/10 "2005-04-07T07:42:26Z")
\*\*Sarah \*\* - you might like to consider applying to some of the major Commonwealth and state (whichever one you’re in) government statutory authorities. They often take on new law graduates. It would be good experience even if you’re not particularly interested in a long term career in the public sector. ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/11 "2005-04-07T08:10:24Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Are you talking about applying for articles, or have you already got a practising certificate? If it’s articles, have you ever done any seasonals? What about the firm where you have been clerking - why won’t they give you an articles interview? Which state are you in? I’m currently at the College of Law, doing the on-campus (theory) component of the work that you need to get a practising certificate. The other component is the graduate work bit - that’s what I’m trying to line up at the moment, but not having much luck. The problem with the firm I clerked in was that it was very small, and since I stopped working there, some ‘restructuring’ has been done - now it’s a sole practitioner firm, and I doubt there will be enough work for me to do. I’m in New South Wales, by the way. Thanks **Cunctator** for the suggestion - I would _love_ to work for DFAT or the Attorney-General’s Dept - I’ve applied to the NSW Att-G, but so far no reply. I find the federal gov. application process to be like an exam - you have to really be prepared to write out your life-story in an essay! But at the moment I like the idea of being a solicitor as opposed to a government lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/12 "2005-04-07T09:51:35Z")
You are me 7 or 8 years ago. I now work in government practice but have worked as a private NSW solicitor. I confess I got my first ‘proper’ private sector solicitor job from a guy I met at a cafe in Bronte, the girlfriend knew him, he was looking out for a junior solicitor - one thing lead to another. But you want method and means. OK - Network - meet people, all sorts of people, stay alert to opportunities - follow up with the firms you’ve applied to, each year they send out a billion pro forma rejections. Ignore those and follow up with ‘why’ and will you/do you have anything coming up later questions. - make every application a good one - lots of small - medium firms will keep good applications on file, particularly if you ask them to - and contact you when a position comes up. - small firms are a good way to get in - recruitment is a bother to them try them, even out west or in the larger country towns. - try graduate programs with NSW and Cth public sector - DFAT is too stressful and concentrates on pretty, male protestants. Contrary to myth it is not too hard at all to jump Public to Private sector, particularly if you have ‘commercial’ Public experience. In fact Public sector do more ‘real’ law than private sector, advice writing and briefs etc. Negligible schmoozing. - Concentrate on your preferred practice area, whatever it is chase that. It shows and seems to impress employers. - Do not, however, resort to Marsdens. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/13 "2005-04-07T12:35:37Z")
**Sarah** , how about a role with no pay or very little pay? It may not satisfy the practical requirements of your course, but it might be another way to network etc. There are a lot of volunteer jobs in community law, you’d be working with some of the most committed and skillful lawyers out there and you’d have opportunities to network. Perhaps you could take on this kind of thing while you’re still studying the theory component of your course? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/14 "2005-05-13T07:15:09Z")
Wow! I just found this thread, and am mortified to discover that some of the neatest posters here are LAWYERS! I went head to head with a bunch of litigation lawyers in HK and it was not an edifying experience. (Apart from beating them - well, sort of - they settled, not me). How cathartic it is to have to confront one’s prejudices! (Actually, I always make it clear that it is _litigation_ lawyers I have contempt for, but still, sometimes, I confess, I do extend my animus to other members of yoru honorable profession.) You see your the effect you’re having on me - normally I call you lot an industry (and refuse on principle to use the word profession)… ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/15 "2005-05-13T07:21:28Z")
Heh. Since you nearly gave me a heart-attack by reviving this thread, I’ll take the opportunity to say thankyou again to all the lawyer-people who gave me the useful advice you see above. At the moment I have a few interviews coming up, so fingers crossed. And I’ll be starting a voluntary work placement soon. Things are moving, but slowly, towards an ACTUAL GRADUATE JOB! Woohoo! Erm… thanks **Atticus, Campion, Cunctator, Sevastopol, pravnik et al.** 😉 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/16 "2005-05-13T07:31:07Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > Heh. Since you nearly gave me a heart-attack by reviving this thread, I’ll take the opportunity to say thankyou again to all the lawyer-people who gave me the useful advice you see above. > At the moment I have a few interviews coming up, so fingers crossed. And I’ll be starting a voluntary work placement soon. Things are moving, but slowly, towards an ACTUAL GRADUATE JOB! Woohoo! > Erm… thanks **Atticus, Campion, Cunctator, Sevastopol, pravnik et al.** 😉 Don’t I get a thank you? Practise it now. I am a senior partner in the firm you have your eye on. You have an interview. I make a show of holding the lift for you without blocking your way so that you have no choice but either to brush past my manly frame or to tell me to get out first. You turn to me, smile as I appreciate the sheen of your silk blouse without staring at its contents (despite the fact that they are putting the fabric under no little strain), and say: ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/17 "2005-05-13T07:59:49Z")
“Please, you go first. Age before Beauty.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doper-lawyers-how-did-you-get-your-first-job/298013/18 "2005-05-13T08:20:25Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > “Please, you go first. Age before Beauty.” > 😃 And just when I was beginning to like you… 46 is not old. It’s comfortable, mature. And I’m still young at heart. My heart is set on an Audi 6. Every man must cope with a menopause too, you know.