# Doper's Hero John Cleese A Souper Seekrit Nazi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 29, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736 "2019-05-29T21:08:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/21 "2019-05-30T00:06:18Z")
The original [Grumpy Old Man](https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html) > [@](#): > > The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.-Socrates ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/22 "2019-05-30T00:13:02Z")
As compared to 1969, much more of London real estate is owned by rich “furriners” who leave the houses and flats vacant, and young dudes like Cleese was in 1969 can’t afford to live anywhere. Same deal in New York, Vancouver, and other desirable cities. Also, you see more “Pret a Porters” and Starbucks on the street fronts than old-fashioned pubs and tea rooms. I agree with him, but I am an old fart of 58. (Race and ethnicity doesn’t enter into it, for me, anyway. I enjoy watching the hot Asian/African/Middle Eastern chicks saunter past as much as the little blondie English roses.) ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/23 "2019-05-30T00:15:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Did he even say that becoming “less English” was necessarily a bad thing? As an Irish-American I appreciate that observation. But when I visit London I get all Anglophile and teary-eyed. It’s tough to maintain your prejudices when you’re surrounded by such charming, polite, nice, cheerful, and dog-loving people. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/24 "2019-05-30T00:27:08Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > So what is he talking about then? > [@Chronos](#): > > Did he even say that becoming “less English” was necessarily a bad thing? My guess is it is more about globalization where the same stores and same restaurants are everywhere. There is a loss of local ‘flair’ when you are essentially the same as everywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/25 "2019-05-30T02:46:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Given that nobody here said that, I’d question your reading–but your first paragraph already answered any such question. You’re right. Only called him a nazi and said git him. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/26 "2019-05-30T02:46:27Z")
Let me know when Cleese advocates invading Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/27 "2019-05-30T03:15:17Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You’re right. Only called him a nazi and said git him. …you’re talking about the OP, which under the most charitable interpretation is being sarcastic? ok ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/28 "2019-05-30T03:15:39Z")
I always get confused as to what Brits are talking about when they describe something as “English”, on account of the multiple-kingdoms issue. I presume they’re generally not using the term to exclude the Scots and Welsh? As near as I can figure out, “English” typically means “British, but in an old-fashioned traditional sort of way”. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/29 "2019-05-30T03:21:27Z")
Here is a [story](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-cleese-twitter_uk_5cee57a0e4b0ae6710597f61?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cDovL2FwcGxlLmNvbS9zcG90bGlnaHQtc3VnZ2VzdGlvbg&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADKo1f291alXKF5s-lICOQVVcUCuXozpKHhgDGYvA4V0V9SD65HM5gQ7G_j2ZW1ih54EblE7gFh-2bwqckVK9e-dMwCkC5itTtZHfE3NYIl0BkpOkc9BA_z1gySvzy55yZysjgTJYjC0pFGPXkRIGN37RuCZqdUm9zelitCiMtAR) about the comments Cleese made. He’s also moved out of England for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/30 "2019-05-30T03:24:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I always get confused as to what Brits are talking about when they describe something as “English”, on account of the multiple-kingdoms issue. I presume they’re generally not using the term to exclude the Scots and Welsh? > > As near as I can figure out, “English” typically means “British, but in an old-fashioned traditional sort of way”. I think “English” pretty explicitly excludes Scots and Welsh. Certainly any Scots and Welshfolk hearing it won’t consider themselves to have been included. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/31 "2019-05-30T03:29:18Z")
IMO saying ‘English’ to mean ‘British of any kind’ is not something that would endear an Englishman to his Scottish/Welsh/Irish compatriots, any more than the reverse would, and the inhabitants of the not-English parts of the U.K. are pretty keenly aware of their own separate ‘not English’ identities. English pretty much means English ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/32 "2019-05-30T03:46:50Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > (“Loretta?!?”) No, Stan-called-Loretta was Eric Idle. Please try to keep your comedians straight. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/33 "2019-05-30T04:03:29Z")
Let’s start with the ignorance that “UK = English”. No, the UK is English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and a few other smaller things. Saying that London isn’t an English City isn’t saying that it’s overrun with foreigners or any such nonsense. It’s saying that it isn’t really “English” (alone) anymore. It’s something more/different than that now. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/34 "2019-05-30T04:18:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, the UK is English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and a few other smaller things. Yeah, I get the literal sense of “English” as referencing the specific part of the UK that **isn’t** Wales or Scotland or Ireland or those few other things. What puzzles me is this metaphorical nostalgic use of the term. I mean, obviously in the literal sense Cleese would be completely wrong that London “isn’t an English city anymore”, because the city of London is just as much in England as it ever was. But when he uses “isn’t an English city anymore” metaphorically, obviously he doesn’t mean that London has become too Scottish or Welsh or Irish. So why didn’t he say “isn’t a British city anymore” instead? > [@Chimera](#): > > Saying that London isn’t an English City isn’t saying that it’s overrun with foreigners or any such nonsense. It’s saying that it isn’t really “English” (alone) anymore. It’s something more/different than that now. But what I don’t really get is the difference in connotation between calling it an “English city” and calling it a “British city”. Is London in Cleese’s view still a “British city” even if it’s not really an “English city” anymore, and if so, what’s the difference? Literally, of course, London is still **both** a British city and an English city. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/35 "2019-05-30T05:58:20Z")
I was listening to a history podcast several months ago and for absolutely no reason the hosts started to get really angry at something John Cleese had apparently said then recently but at no point in their 5 minute rant did they ever actually tell the audience what exactly John Cleese had said. I hate podcasts now. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/36 "2019-05-30T07:43:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I always get confused as to what Brits are talking about when they describe something as “English”, on account of the multiple-kingdoms issue. I presume they’re generally not using the term to exclude the Scots and Welsh? > > As near as I can figure out, “English” typically means “British, but in an old-fashioned traditional sort of way”. No, we mean English. It is a distinct nationality. Nothing to do with Scots and Welsh and Irish. Amazingly, we do have our own identity, even if it doesn’t come with a national costume! ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/37 "2019-05-30T08:26:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I get the literal sense of “English” as referencing the specific part of the UK that **isn’t** Wales or Scotland or Ireland or those few other things. What puzzles me is this metaphorical nostalgic use of the term. > > I mean, obviously in the literal sense Cleese would be completely wrong that London “isn’t an English city anymore”, because the city of London is just as much in England as it ever was. But when he uses “isn’t an English city anymore” metaphorically, obviously he doesn’t mean that London has become too Scottish or Welsh or Irish. So why didn’t he say “isn’t a British city anymore” instead? > > But what I don’t really get is the difference in connotation between calling it an “English city” and calling it a “British city”. Is London in Cleese’s view still a “British city” even if it’s not really an “English city” anymore, and if so, what’s the difference? Literally, of course, London is still **both** a British city and an English city. I suspect he’s thinking in English cultural terms - there’s a whole host of nostalgically English things which are distinct from generic British. London may be capital of the UK, but it’s still a distinctly English place (or was, in his view. Not mine. ). Gentlemen’s clubs, afternoon tea, blah blah Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/38 "2019-05-30T08:45:42Z")
Consider an analogy: France is part of Europe, but when a French person thinks of Paris, the first thing that comes to mind is probably “Paris is a great French city” rather than “Paris is a great European city”. Even though both of these things are true - being French is likely to be a bigger part of a French person’s identity than being European, even if they like being a part of Europe. Similarly, John Cleese probably identifies as English a lot more than he does as British. That’s not uncommon. In fact, one of the big problems with the word “British” when used in the nostalgic cultural sort of sense, rather than pragmatically as “things on some part of the island of Great Britain” is that people from other bits of Britain deeply suspect that when English people say “British” they secretly mean “English” but have temporarily forgotten that the not-English bits actually exist. I have no great experience of what Northern Irish people think of the word “British” when used to mean “any part of the UK” but I can’t imagine they’re totally in favour. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/39 "2019-05-30T09:11:01Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > So what is he talking about then? My take is that he’s saying that it’s a European or generic international city without much local character. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/40 "2019-05-30T10:03:44Z")
Cleese is from the left-wing of the Brexit cheerleaders. He despises the British right-wing( so no, not a Nazi ), but isn’t a fan of EU membership. This just looks like part and parcel of that view. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736.md?page=3)