# Doper's Hero John Cleese A Souper Seekrit Nazi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 29, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736 "2019-05-29T21:08:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/81 "2019-05-31T18:50:20Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Nationalist, chauvinist, being an ass, sure. But racist? Who considers the Scottish and the English different races? For the purposes of the concept at the root of racism, there’s no difference. Really, what is the fundamental difference between an Englishman’s bigotry against Nigerians and an Englishman’s bigotry against Scots? There is none. If one is racism, then there’s no logical reason that the other one isn’t racism. It’s only if you consider race to be some kind of fundamental concept. But we know race isn’t fundamental. There is no scientific definition of race that logically divides an Englishman from a Nigerian but not an Englishman from a Scot. You can try to muddle about and look for a term–ethnism?–but why bother? “Racism” is good enough. It’s describing the same phenomenon in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/82 "2019-05-31T18:50:29Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’ve only passed through Nairn - maybe stopped for an ice-cream once - but no, not a very tenementy sort of place at all. I wonder how the beanpole prick would describe an actual tenement Scot like Billy Connolly? "Wormy. What’s that? He’s still alive? Smelly then." ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/83 "2019-05-31T19:18:34Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [From here.](https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/29/british-actor-john-cleese-faces-criticism-for-tweet-saying-london-not-really-an-english-ci)(Tweet quoted) > > Nothing about immigrants. > > Further clarification: > > Still nothing about immigrants. Man, you did far more research into this than the OP did. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/84 "2019-06-01T03:23:18Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/85 "2019-06-01T03:49:08Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > nm I told you once. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/86 "2019-06-01T09:01:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > For the purposes of the concept at the root of racism, there’s no difference. > > Really, what is the fundamental difference between an Englishman’s bigotry against Nigerians and an Englishman’s bigotry against Scots? There is none. If one is racism, then there’s no logical reason that the other one isn’t racism. > > It’s only if you consider race to be some kind of fundamental concept. But we know race isn’t fundamental. There is no scientific definition of race that logically divides an Englishman from a Nigerian but not an Englishman from a Scot. > > You can try to muddle about and look for a term–ethnism?–but why bother? “Racism” is good enough. It’s describing the same phenomenon in both cases. That’s my take on it too in pretty much every detail. To say that the term racism only applies to the categories invented by 19th century scientific racists is to give those racists power, especially since before that, “race” referred to any related grouping of people (or animals). And even so, the state of mind between broad-grouping-racists and (ethnicists?) is similar enough that one shouldn’t quibble with the term especially since there isn’t a better one available. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/87 "2019-06-01T15:44:31Z")
> [@naita](#): > > John Cleese started making grumpy old man statements years ago. In at least some ways he was the grumpy old man of the group even back in the Monty Python days. A crucial point. He wasn’t happy about the show and left it after the 3rd season. He generally made it his job to stir stuff up. Now that he’s older he’s crankier. Someone sneezing a block away is probably enough to set him off. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/88 "2019-06-01T21:39:20Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I told you once. No, you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/89 "2019-06-01T22:13:29Z")
> [@Meurglys](#): > > Not only that, but I don’t think Nairn _has_ any tenements for him to be a ’ half-educated tenement Scot’ from! Morningside’s got masses of 'em! ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/90 "2019-06-01T22:15:27Z")
You know who else was a Nazi? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/91 "2019-06-01T23:04:36Z")
Mosley? ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/92 "2019-06-02T20:42:57Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Here is a [story](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-cleese-twitter_uk_5cee57a0e4b0ae6710597f61?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cDovL2FwcGxlLmNvbS9zcG90bGlnaHQtc3VnZ2VzdGlvbg&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADKo1f291alXKF5s-lICOQVVcUCuXozpKHhgDGYvA4V0V9SD65HM5gQ7G_j2ZW1ih54EblE7gFh-2bwqckVK9e-dMwCkC5itTtZHfE3NYIl0BkpOkc9BA_z1gySvzy55yZysjgTJYjC0pFGPXkRIGN37RuCZqdUm9zelitCiMtAR) about the comments Cleese made. He’s also moved out of England for the time being. Has Cleese lived much in England in the past few decades? I seem to recall that he spent some time in the USA. As for London not being English, I would agree with him. It is simply … London. It is very international, racially and socially very mixed. What you might think of as English tends to be the smaller towns, the other big cities have a charm - or more often, lack of - all of their own. Anyway, the good Mr. Cleese likes to provoke. Nazi??? Hardly. But don’t mention the boncentration bamps. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/93 "2019-06-02T20:45:52Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > [This](https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk-news/john-cleese-criticises-half-educated-tenement-scots-1-4246848) gives an idea of Cleese’s attitude towards Scottish people, and people who didn’t go to private school or Oxbridge. He’s not a nazi, he’s a twat. The article ignores the fact that Cleese’s comments are directed towards one person. He is not criticizing the haggis-fanciers as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/94 "2019-06-02T20:47:39Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > This little kerfuffle has also reminded me of something Cleese said (I thought in jest) a few years ago about Terry Jones, who is from Wales. Something like, “What Terry can’t accept is that the Welsh are a servile race, put here to do menial work for the English.” > > His sense of humor (or maybe I should spell it humour), if that’s what it is, has always been laced with a sense of his own superiority. Or do people take him too seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/95 "2019-06-02T20:49:03Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > London was English in 1939. Not afterwards. I wonder if that’s what he means. Brexit supporters are obsessed with the second world war, and speak in its terms constantly. > > Stuck in the past which never existed. Thatcher without the five year recession and hundreds of thousands of job losses. > > When it reality its just old people wanting to relive the days when they could move without pain, and obviously that’s the German’s and the French’s fault. That is right on the mark. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/96 "2019-06-03T20:46:05Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > This little kerfuffle has also reminded me of something Cleese said (I thought in jest) a few years ago about Terry Jones, who is from Wales. Something like, “What Terry can’t accept is that the Welsh are a servile race, put here to do menial work for the English.” > > His sense of humor (or maybe I should spell it humour), if that’s what it is, has always been laced with a sense of his own superiority. I believe Cleese liked pushing Jones’s buttons and turning up his thermostat. All in good fun, don’t you know. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/97 "2019-06-03T20:47:11Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > The article ignores the fact that Cleese’s comments are directed towards one person. He is not criticizing the haggis-fanciers as a whole. Blessed are the Cheese Makers! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/98 "2019-06-03T21:02:00Z")
He’s obviously referring to the creators of any animal-based product such as haggis. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/99 "2019-06-03T21:15:33Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > While Cleese has said said some questionable things at times, being a grumpy old bloke, I see no reason to attribute that comment to racism without a mention of race or diversity; it’s a common meme in England that London is something by itself, not really quite a part of the country. Even job listings separate by “London” and “the rest of England” first of all, something which I haven’t encountered for other countries (not that I’ve searched in every country). ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736/100 "2019-06-04T10:35:26Z")
Eric Idle has lived in LA for a while now and Cleese lived in the US as well. His first 3 wives are American but his current wife is British and he lives back in the UK now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-hero-john-cleese-a-souper-seekrit-nazi/834736.md?page=4)