# Dopers, solve the middle east problem **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957 "2003-09-21T12:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/41 "2003-09-23T06:10:54Z")
Those are might offensive broad brushstrokes you’re painting there. The worst part is that you’re sufficiently conceited to believe that you’re actually correct. The stated mission of this mesaageboard is to FIGHT ignorance - not propagate it. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/42 "2003-09-23T06:27:30Z")
I can see **Daisy Cutter** , that you hail from the “5% Compassionate and 95% Righteous” school of evolved thought. ---
**Author:** ![FairDink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@FairDink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairDink)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/43 "2003-09-23T07:19:40Z")
**Boo Boo Foo** , we meet again. This time though, I would have to agree with everything that you stated in your original post. I would like to add, however, that I feel getting rid of Arafat (somehow) and replacing him with someone who wants prosperity for his people, as much as for himself, is the key to closing the poverty-gap between the borders. This would include educational reform and some kind of re-direction for Hamas and other such influencial groups. After that, I’m sure Sharon would be more than happy to go seeing there is nothing to shoot anymore.😉 Over time, I would like to see more mixing between the cultures, where the governments then represent both peoples. It would be only natural that the occupied territories would be handed back, with much of the land having been made fertile and hence valueble. That more or less goes along the lines of **Jonathan Chance** ’s solution. ‘Eliminate’, by any meens possible, corruption on both sides. From there, I believe it is only a matter of human interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/44 "2003-09-23T08:04:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FairDink \* > **Over time, I would like to see more mixing between the cultures, where the governments then represent both peoples.** Now _there’s_ an interesting idea - **forced intermarriage**. The entire cultural conflict is reduced to domestic squabbling at one fell swoop. ---
**Author:** ![rklewis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba8739/32.png) [@rklewis2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rklewis2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/45 "2003-09-23T11:12:29Z")
I’m not so sure I’d buy the prosperity idea…When the state of Isreal was formed, there wasn’t a whole lot over there, and yet the new state was attacked. Part of this issue has to do with belief systems also, like it or not. That’s something that can’t be fixed by any political means. Personally, I feel that the Palestinians want the Jewish people gone - or at least the entire political system. That’s not going to happen. To me, it’s both amazing and sad. The amount of wasted blood and lives over the years, with nothing being accomplished. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/46 "2003-09-23T11:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by rklewis2 \* > \*\* Personally, I feel that the Palestinians want the Jewish people gone - or at least the entire political system._\* The hardline Palestinians almost certainly do. But you shouldn’t ignore the fact that the hardline Zionists want the Palestinians gone from the West Bank too. ---
**Author:** ![rklewis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba8739/32.png) [@rklewis2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rklewis2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/47 "2003-09-23T11:25:04Z")
Oh no…I’d agree with you there… I’m certainly not painting either side as the good guys. Ugh. I should’ve been more clear! ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/48 "2003-09-23T11:29:38Z")
Well, **rklewis** certainly, from 1915 thru to 1948, the single greatest reason for bitterness was the overwhelming sense by the locals that they were being invaded by “the Jewish pigs” who were buying up all their land, left right and center. But after that, you then had forced ethnic cleansing by both sides in all of the sourrounding regions - and the net result is that the Palestinians have ended up living in conditions not far above that of your common sewer - whilst the Israeli’s have effectively gone from strength to strength. With hindsight, it’s all perfectly clear as to how it unfolded, but the real reasons initially were sheer tribalism, and xenophobia. 50 years on? The typical Palestinian today is probably more concerned about the endemic poverty and unemployment in their lives than who did what in the past. It’s important (the past that is), sure, but they still have to live their lives here in the present - and the present is an ugly deck of cards if you’re a Palestinian. The bigots on both sides consign their fate to the sewer, time and time again. Supposedly that’s called fighting the good fight, but most reasonable people recognise it for what it is - a noble cause permanently hijacked by the most base and vile ugliness in all of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![FairDink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@FairDink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairDink)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/49 "2003-09-24T02:32:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo_ > So, it seems to me that the long term solution will be to raise Palestinian living standards up to Israeli living standards. And this includes everything that comes with good quality living standards - a commitment to world class education and health facilities, robust civil institutions, stamping out corruption, a commitment to human rights and property rights etc etc. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by FairDink_ > … replacing him [Arafat] with someone who wants prosperity for his people, as much as for himself, is the key to closing the poverty-gap between the borders. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by rklewis_ > Part of this issue has to do with belief systems also, like it or not. Probably, but only in the minority groups. Believe it or not, there is a silent majority within the Palastinian community who want nothing more than to live ‘normal’ lives. That is not to say they ‘love’ israelis, but they certainly don’t hate them with such passion. I don’t think having ‘faith’ is a bad thing, its how an individual decides to take advantage of someones faith that is the evil. IMO, ‘Quality of life’ are the coals burning this fire. The politics and propaganda involved just continuously add fuel. As long as the Palastinian quality of life is below that of Israelis, those coals will stay white hot. And as long as Arafat is the leader, Palastinian quality of life will remain below that of Israelis. For peace to even have a chance Arafat (and his 40 thieves) just has to go, followed closely by Sharon (and his 40 tanks). There was a protest held last week in Israel whose intentions were to stop Sharon expanding the occupied territories. Men, Women and children attended the protest. Perhaps once Palastinian women get a say in every day life there would be a better chance for a more peaceful democracy - Just don’t let them drive ;). ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/50 "2003-09-24T02:49:14Z")
There won’t be an answer until everyone looks to the future instead of living in the past, until their love for their children becomes stronger than their hatred for their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/51 "2003-09-24T03:26:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FoamChomsky \* > **Uhh, pardon me, but just prior to the 67 War, didn’t a fellow named Nasser blockade the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and kick the UN peackeeping force out of the Sinai, replacing them with Egyptian troops?** Yes, those would happen to be the > [@](#): > > concentration of forces [that] gradually led the Arabs to believe that an opportunity had been created to realize their 19-year aspiration to destroy Israel. In the light of this development, Israel had no choice but to preempt. The prelude to ’67 is fully covered in the IDF history link provided. The point being made was that Israel jumped its neighbors before it got jumped by them in 1967. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bizzwire \* > **There won’t be an answer until everyone looks to the future instead of living in the past, until their love for their children becomes stronger than their hatred for their enemies.** Truer words were never spoken. ---
**Author:** ![FairDink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@FairDink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairDink)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/52 "2003-09-24T03:52:23Z")
… and, like it or not, money helps. ---
**Author:** ![FairDink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@FairDink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairDink)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/53 "2003-09-24T04:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > … and, like it or not, money helps. I mean, a mother who loves her child wishes that child a better life than hers. If some selfish, pigheaded, mofo brainwashes her to believe that this comes in the form of Shahada, then who is to blame? When some fathead beuro takes us for a ride, we may look at ourselves as suckers, and we may even blame ourselves a little. We must first gain the advantage hindsight though, in order to learn from it. If the mother was to think that ‘a better life’ came in the form of school followed by university followed by medicne, then the original selfish, pigheaded, mofo would be better off forming a boy-band than a terror network. ---
**Author:** ![FairDink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@FairDink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairDink)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/54 "2003-09-24T04:47:52Z")
Heres an interesting cite. [http://www.pmw.org.il/new/](http://www.pmw.org.il/new/) After seeing this you may even think we are the ones being brainwashed. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/55 "2003-09-24T11:57:20Z")
**One more idea:** The US deploys its most potent weapon. Under cover of night, we airlift in a crack team of writers, directors, producers, actors, and create a daily soap opera so endearing, so addictive, so chock-full of characters and plots that every one can relate to, that the populace comes to embrace its message of peaceful co-existence and hope, and the hardliners on both sides can no longer find anyone to support their cause. hmmmm…“Friends” is in their last season… ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/56 "2003-09-24T14:25:49Z")
Said it before, I’ll say it again. Peace cannot be dictated onto an occupied people. The Jews know this very well from history. When the Jews have been occupied, they have been largely powerless to determine their own fates – yes they negotiated, but they always ended up in the hands of the Romans, the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, and the Spanish, the Tsars and the Nazis in Europe. If they were tolerated by the leaders, the Jews prospered. If they weren’t, they suffered. It is up to the occupiers to take the mantle and completely dictate the terms. Israel cannot wait for Palestine, it must proceed on its own inertia if this thing will ever be resolved. The solution I have advocated is the Big Ass Wall. It seems to be working in Cyprus and Korea and one could argue that it worked in Berlin. The wall isn’t pretty but it prevents war. The Separation Fence being constructed at present is not exactly on the 1967 borders, but on border convenient to Israel. It is tough shit for the Palestinians, but they unfortunately have little say in the matter. The Israelis must withdraw behind the wall completely and wait. If history is any judge, the situation will stabilize enough in 20 or 30 years that peace will be possible. With good behavior, Israel can make goodwill gestures – return of other occupied land, water rights, power rights, etc. It sucks but when each side cannot negotiate in good faith, there are precious few solutions remaining. They could beat the holy hell out of one another, or they could withdraw completely. I think that withdrawal is the only thing that could bring benefit to each side. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/57 "2003-09-24T19:04:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bizzwire \* > **One more idea:** > > The US deploys its most potent weapon. > Under cover of night, we airlift in a crack team of writers, directors, producers, actors, and create a daily soap opera so endearing, so addictive, so chock-full of characters and plots that every one can relate to, that the populace comes to embrace its message of peaceful co-existence and hope, and the hardliners on both sides can no longer find anyone to support their cause. From [SatireWire.com](http://www.satirewire.com/news/feb02/israel.shtml): > [@](#): > > **ARAFAT, SHARON WALK OFF SET OF “ISRAEL” > Temperamental Stars Say They’re Tired of Playing Dogmatic Jerks** > > Jerusalem ([SatireWire.com](http://SatireWire.com)) Sources on the set of “Israel,” history’s longest-running drama, say irascible stars Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat angrily walked off the set today, complaining that the show’s scriptwriters continually make their characters say and do stupid things… ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957/58 "2003-09-24T20:23:53Z")
Been away from my computer for two days, so I’m getting at this late, but here goes… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > **The U.S. guarantees Israel’s physical security by stationing a brigade in Israel and the occupied territories, in exchange for an end to “targetted killings” by the Israelis, incursions into the occupied territories to arrest terrorists, and new settlements.** If this doesn’t work, American soldiers will die. See Iraq. I don’t want this on my concience. It’s bad enough that we have to take the losses we are taking for holding on to our homes, we must not demand that others die for us. > [@](#): > > **A U.N. led peacekeeping force occupies the occupied territories and provides policing and civil adminstration, in exchange for the disarmament of Hamas, Al-aqsa, et al. U.S. military muscle backs them up to forcibly disarm them, if necessary. The U.N. also sets up a Palestinian police and military force eventually, conditional upon the transformation of terrorist organizations into political parties.** The UN Peace-keeping forces, worldwide, are bad jokes. Certainly the UN force in Lebanon has stopped very little Hizballah activity there. The fact that the Lebanese border is quiet has everything to do with direct politics and nothing to do with the UN. > [@](#): > > **The world throws mad money at the Palestinian areas to bring the civil infrastructure up to par with Israel.** Good idea, if it can be guaanteed that the money actually makes it into infrustructure and not into numbered accounts. > [@](#): > > \*\*The U.N. and the U.S. leave behind a confederacy between the Israelis and the Palestinian territories modelled on the decentralized government of the Swiss. Jerusalem is an extra-territorial capital to both. > \*\* I prefer a two-state solution - yes, in the end give the Palestinians their own full-fledged country. I am NOT willing, however, to let anyone else control Jerusalem. We saw how much access to holy sites there was in the 1948-1967 period, when Jordan (a relatively benign autocracy) ruled it. I think very few people will contest that Jerusalem, under Israeli rule, is open to visitors of all religions (including Palestinians, subject to security restrictions, but often tens of thousands praying on Temple Mount). In short, all well-intentioned ideas, but I’m afraid they would all break up IRL. Dan Abarbanel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dopers-solve-the-middle-east-problem/202957.md?page=2)