# Doperville Mafia - New Players Welcome! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 9, 2008, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670 "2008-05-09T07:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/321 "2008-05-15T02:06:06Z")
bleh - that should have read “much more experienced _than_ I…” Maybe I’ll see the “deceased” in the forbidden thread ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/322 "2008-05-15T02:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=anyrose] FTR - and this is what I told **CoG888** - I am leaving because I cannot keep up. You’re all much more experienced and I and I feel I am drowning in the logic battles. Perhaps the next newbie friendly game will be a newbies only game…? [/QUOTE] **Hal Briston** was planning on running one for a while, but he put that on indefinite hiatus. I think that’s part of why **CoG888** stepped up with this one, that is sitting with 2/3 or so of the participants having played 1 game or less. I imagine someone will be running a newbie game in the future, but when that will be is unknown. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/323 "2008-05-15T04:51:41Z")
Well, even though I made it my luggage did not. Therefore, I am going to express the thoughts I had even in lieu of the most recent developments based on my recollections of the notes I have made that are now probably enjoying some type of wild European or Vegas type of vacation. **anyrose** was really starting to come across as very non contributory to the town. I understand that some of the interactions can become a bit heated. But it was making increasing less sense to go down the path of “kill me” if you don’t believe me. This trust me kind of stance does not and should not hold a lot of water IMHO. I will add that I am sorry that her experience has caused her to bow out. But I would also hazzard to guess that this is probably the newbiest game I have seen - at least from a games played standpoint. **Thing Fish** has made a lot of posts that even he has admitted were ill advised, at best. At least, not helpful to the town. **bufftaby** ’s vote on **Koldanar** (new and improved spelling) seems manufactured. Of the three, I am going to **Vote Thing Fish** And I also would wonder if the way in which **anyrose** has exited the game would cause the remaining players who enjoy this game to have some discussion to preclude, or at least minimize this from happening in the future. Not for this thread, certainly, but in general elsewhere. Once again, my two cents (I think I am in for a dime about now). ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/324 "2008-05-15T05:05:29Z")
NETA. Preclude should be mitigate and I know **bufftabbys** current vote is on **anyrose** but the original seemed a little forced. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/325 "2008-05-15T05:15:49Z")
[QUOTE=peekercpa] NETA. Preclude should be mitigate and I know **bufftabbys** current vote is on **anyrose** but the original seemed a little forced. [/QUOTE] Eh, I had to get rid of that random vote somewhere. I agree that my reason was not really substantial enough for any time but Day One, but there’s precious little to go on here. I stand by my suspicion, but won’t vote again based solely on the question in question. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/326 "2008-05-15T14:48:05Z")
So it seems that it’s come down to **Thing Fish** vs **anyrose**. At this point, I think it would be a bit silly to lynch **anyrose** - she’s already dropped out of the game, and really that only serves to illustrate to me that she’s a flustered vanilla newbie, and as such, not someone I’m planning to vote for. I’m not sure if I understand the case against **Thing Fish** , so I’m going to review the thread. But, nonetheless I am not entirely dissatisfied with my vote for **peekercpa** , so I’ll leave it for now until I’ve had a chance to review everything. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/327 "2008-05-15T15:16:01Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] So it seems that it’s come down to **Thing Fish** vs **anyrose**. At this point, I think it would be a bit silly to lynch **anyrose** - she’s already dropped out of the game, and really that only serves to illustrate to me that she’s a flustered vanilla newbie, and as such, not someone I’m planning to vote for. I’m not sure if I understand the case against **Thing Fish** , so I’m going to review the thread. But, nonetheless I am not entirely dissatisfied with my vote for **peekercpa** , so I’ll leave it for now until I’ve had a chance to review everything. [/QUOTE] Not quite. There’s a rule the newbies need to be aware of…when **dotchan** subs in, she needs to be immediately lynched 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/328 "2008-05-15T15:52:57Z")
Well, it sucks that we have already lost two people but I’ll throw a welcome out to Dotchan. There really haven’t been any developments in the last 24 hrs outside of the player changes but at least its early so the changes shouldn’t affect anything. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/329 "2008-05-15T15:53:27Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] So it seems that it’s come down to **Thing Fish** vs **anyrose**. At this point, I think it would be a bit silly to lynch **anyrose** - she’s already dropped out of the game, and really that only serves to illustrate to me that she’s a flustered vanilla newbie, and as such, not someone I’m planning to vote for. [/QUOTE] Why would it be silly? She’ll be subbed out. Whoever takes over will have the same affiliation. I don’t feel silly at all leaving my vote on anyrose/TBA. In fact, I don’t see why her actions are necessarily that of a “flustered vanilla newbie”. Why isn’t it just as likely for her to be a flustered scum, upset because she’s blown her cover on Day One? I can see both motivations as equally valid and possible, so I’m not understanding how you see “vanilla newbie” practically as a foregone conclusion. Personally, I think anyrose manufactured reasons to vote for **Thing Fish** whenever TF got to close to the truth with his/her random vote against anyrose. Yep, my vote stands. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/330 "2008-05-15T16:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Koldanar] Not quite. There’s a rule the newbies need to be aware of…when **dotchan** subs in, she needs to be immediately lynched 😃 [/QUOTE] Was that why town cut Batman down to the wire–we waited too long to lynch her survivor butt? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Unkempt\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b782af/32.png) [@The\_Unkempt\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Unkempt_One)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/331 "2008-05-15T16:17:42Z")
[QUOTE=bufftabby] Why would it be silly? She’ll be subbed out. Whoever takes over will have the same affiliation. I don’t feel silly at all leaving my vote on anyrose/TBA. In fact, I don’t see why her actions are necessarily that of a “flustered vanilla newbie”. Why isn’t it just as likely for her to be a flustered scum, upset because she’s blown her cover on Day One? I can see both motivations as equally valid and possible, so I’m not understanding how you see “vanilla newbie” practically as a foregone conclusion. Personally, I think anyrose manufactured reasons to vote for **Thing Fish** whenever TF got to close to the truth with his/her random vote against anyrose. Yep, my vote stands. [/QUOTE] My vote is currently against **Thing Fish** , but I would be interested to hear what reasons you think **anyrose** manufactured to vote against **Thing Fish**. On this first Day, any info that we can gather would be really helpful. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/332 "2008-05-15T16:24:55Z")
**Unkempt One** , I will do my best, but I’m headed to work, so we’ll see. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/333 "2008-05-15T17:17:57Z")
Well, it’s not surprising that a newbie-friendly game would have a lot of subs, particularly in the beginning - I suspect a lot of people don’t realize the true magnitude of time commitment necessary. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/334 "2008-05-15T17:22:48Z")
Think Fish, before the day ends if there was one thing you would have done different, what would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/335 "2008-05-15T17:42:33Z")
[QUOTE=RyJae] Think Fish, before the day ends if there was one thing you would have done different, what would that be? [/QUOTE] Boy, hard to narrow it down. Probably my insinuation against **twickster** was what really started the ball rolling. Also my failure to make really, really clear that I didn’t mean that \*\*anyrose \*\* shouldn’t be trying to defend herself at all, just to not get totally preoccupied with denouncing my random vote. And also my failure to make clear that I was advising caution with regard to \*\*BlaM’s \*\* advice not so much on _strategy_ (“here’s how Mafia players should generally think and act in these types of situation”) as on _tactics_ (“here’s who looks scummiest to me in this game right now”). Basically, this has been a very humbling experience, and there is a lot of room for improvement. On the bright side, I can hardly do worse in my next game. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/336 "2008-05-15T18:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=Thing Fish] Boy, hard to narrow it down. Probably my insinuation against **twickster** was what really started the ball rolling. Also my failure to make really, really clear that I didn’t mean that \*\*anyrose \*\* shouldn’t be trying to defend herself at all, just to not get totally preoccupied with denouncing my random vote. And also my failure to make clear that I was advising caution with regard to \*\*BlaM’s \*\* advice not so much on _strategy_ (“here’s how Mafia players should generally think and act in these types of situation”) as on _tactics_ (“here’s who looks scummiest to me in this game right now”). Basically, this has been a very humbling experience, and there is a lot of room for improvement. On the bright side, I can hardly do worse in my next game. [/QUOTE] This sounds so totally townie to me, putting myself out there as saying this vote is wrong it jsut feels wrong with his last few posts. I think he is town so I cannot keep my vote on him. unvote Thing Fish Vote anyrose\* \*This vote really isn’t based on as much as I would like it to be but it is still day 1 so this vote is based on a gut feeling and metagamey reasons in relation to subbing out. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/337 "2008-05-15T18:26:30Z")
Ok, here are my thoughts on the **Thing Fish** lynch. He has definitely proposed some sub-par strategy for Town. This seems to be the general reason for the lynch. The best example I could find was from post 163: > [@Thing Fish](#): > > To take an extreme example, if someone announced that he would always vote for the player with the lowest post count, it would be easy for scum to avoid having that player vote for them. So you want to avoid having rigid rules about who you will vote for, or at least avoid publicizing them. A better permutation of the lurker-lynch strategy would be to say “I will look at the players who are near the bottom of the list in regard to substantive posts and see if any of them seem more suspicious than the others; if not, I will pick one at random”. This is problematic. First of all I think it’s counter to Town’s advantage to encourage vanilla townies to be suppressing their personal strategy. This makes it very difficult to determine what happened in the case of a quick turning lynch or if the person doesn’t reveal it, and, much easier for scum to hide amongst townsfolk. However, I do think he is correct that rigid rules are not a good idea, and I don’t think it’s entirely unfair to put his feet to the coals for advising other newbies ([as Blaster Master did](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9793970&postcount=188..)). From this point on, Thing Fish was targeted, in particular by Blaster Master. I know that Blaster is a poster with whom I have some difficulty in these games, because his seemingly high surity over points that are in considerable dispute always makes me believe that he has more information than I do. I’m willing to admit that this might be his personality, but where I’m concerned is that he pursues his prey so relentlessly that anything seems like a scum tell. Indeed, when Thing Fish points out this fallibility, [Blaster Master calls it ‘smudging’ and uses it as another reason to vote for him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9793970&postcount=188). Further, the town has been way too easily swayed into following Blaster effectively blindly, which is not a huge deal if he’s Town, but he is not at all confirmed and can cause us days and days of difficulty if he is scum. Other than a short aside to anyrose asking for the reason behind her vote for Thing Fish, Blaster did not address that most of the people that piled on this vote didn’t really address all that much. This seems to me to be a possible cover-himself move (I did admonish anyrose for not giving reasoning) but it has hardly been consistent. I guess I can’t totally fault him for people agreeing with him but again we have the problem that today has more or less turned into a referendum about a single individual. A single individual, I might add, that has done a fairly decent job about rationally responding to his accusers and for whom there is not a solid case. Now, it’s Day 1. I’m not expecting a solid case on anyone. But I think it’s best at this point to give a precautionary note to the new players that we cannot, CANNOT continue this method and expect to win. We got very lucky with a skilled detective the last go-round and had a lot of confirmed townies that played very smartly, but we did lose the opportunity for finding out more. I guess it’s a sensitive point because I was the subject of one of these referendums which are very difficult to oppose - because scum just sits back and doesn’t propose anyone else, and you yourself can do little because you’re a suspect. I just really want to avoid establishing the same pattern. All of that said, I suppose it’s not entirely unfair to vote for Thing Fish, but, I really do get a vibe about peekercpa that I can’t totally ignore. He has completely backed down as well as soon as he was called on his manner of posting by me, and has tried to fade away as much as possible in the late day. As much as I am confident that being outside the pack will likely render me a suspect however Thing Fish turns out, I’m going to have to vote my gut with this one, and as such I’m keeping my vote where it is. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/338 "2008-05-15T18:34:50Z")
(Johnny Cash) Oh, they’re building a gallows outside my cell…(Johnny Cash) Time to wrap up the analysis of this bandwagon started in post 314. As an aside, it seems to me based on my close reading of Simpletown that the “conventional wisdom” on this board tends to underestimate the importance of voting records. In Simpletown, if you had restricted yourself to only voting for players who had the worst ratio of pro-town to anti-town votes, you could have voted for scum every Day. Or not…on every day except Day Five, when **Mind Wanderer** stood alone with his 0-4 record, that rubric would have left you with a mixed bag of town and scum players, so you would still have needed to look closely at motivation, vote timing, consistency, and of course the vaunted Psuedo-Random Hypothesis to make an intelligent vote. But I thought it was weird that only one person even commented on **MW’s** crappy record, and then specifically to say that it wasn’t a good reason to vote for them. Tomorrow there will be several players with an anti-Town vote on their record, and I would encourage people to look carefully at them. When I started to do this analysis, I expected to change my vote to **Unkempt** , based on what I perceived as his bizarrely scummy post 213. After further review, I think my vote belongs right where it is. **RyJae’s** contributions to this game have been few and mostly consist of criticizing me. Before the bandwagon really got rolling, he attacked me in post 148, just after OD77 had raised one of the first suspicions of me in 146 (though for different reasons). Then, after BlaM casts the second vote for me in 188, he pops up to cast the third vote without much in the way of explanation in 200. Once again, Koldanar suggests in 253 that I was discouraging people from paying attention to BlaM’s thoughts on strategy, and there’s RyJae jumping up to agree two posts later. Looks like a consistent pattern of not wanting to start any bandwagons, but hopping in to keep them rolling and then trying to hunker down and not draw attention to himself. I hope he will have to answer some questions about this Tomorrow. **Blam** – I dunno about this guy. He is clearly a very aggressive and abrasive player. In Simpletown, I had just about everybody’s alignment figured out by the time they were confirmed, but I was GOBSMACKED to find out he was Town, because he just acted so scummy towards **fluiddruid**. In this game, he intially seemed to be taking a harsh but essentially reasonable point of view towards me; then in 246-52, he just completely goes off the rails, accusing me of saying stuff I never said and handwaving about “strawmen”. Now he seems to be gone, which in his case I feel pretty sure is due to real life issues, but I would hope he would get some questions about this Tomorrow. **anyrose** – guess it doesn’t matter now. I still think her misquote of me in 135 was pretty scummy, but not on the order of what the above two did. **Unkempt** – sigh. Yet another learning point for me. Looking back in a calmer frame of mind, his misinterpretation (the “this stuff” I was willing to knock off referred to my speculations about **twickster** rather than to my vote on **anyrose** ) is actually very understandable due to my clumsy construction of the paragraph. I still think it’s a little weird that he would think anyone would need to carefully lay groundwork for backing off a random Day One vote, but only a little. But really, **Unkempt** , don’t you think people would take your arguments more seriously if you would just comb your hair and maybe put on a nice blazer? The others – low suspicion. Their arguments against me have generally seemed reasonable in both content and tone. **Zsofia** is attracting my attention just for being lurky, and **Koldanar** seemed quick to jump to negative conclusions about what I said regarding **Blam** , but nothing too pingy here. If _I_ were scum, the very last thing I would want to do is pile onto a bandwagon that’s already pretty much assured of succeeding; you get Townie blood on your hands for essentially no gain. But then again, most people don’t take voting records as seriously as I do, and scum do tend to like crowds, so who knows? Alright, hope this was helpful…or rather, hope it will be helpful tomorrow. Again, sorry to everyone for misplaying so badly as to lead to such a spacious bandwagon for scum to hide on. I will try to do better next time. Go Town. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/339 "2008-05-15T18:43:02Z")
[QUOTE=RyJae] This sounds so totally townie to me, putting myself out there as saying this vote is wrong it jsut feels wrong with his last few posts. I think he is town so I cannot keep my vote on him. Great Moments in Simulposting… So NOW you’re jumping off the bandwagon?? :dubious: I mean, thanks and all, I’m touched, but it does seem to me that in light of the pattern I just laid out, trying to distance yourself from this bandwagon at the last minute is…well…I really like this face… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670/340 "2008-05-15T18:47:34Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] Further, the town has been way too easily swayed into following Blaster effectively blindly, which is not a huge deal if he’s Town, but he is not at all confirmed and can cause us days and days of difficulty if he is scum. Other than a short aside to anyrose asking for the reason behind her vote for Thing Fish, Blaster did not address that most of the people that piled on this vote didn’t really address all that much. This seems to me to be a possible cover-himself move (I did admonish anyrose for not giving reasoning) but it has hardly been consistent. I guess I can’t totally fault him for people agreeing with him but again we have the problem that today has more or less turned into a referendum about a single individual. A single individual, I might add, that has done a fairly decent job about rationally responding to his accusers and for whom there is not a solid case. [/QUOTE] Well its nice to know that I’m not alone in thinking this way. I agree that Thing has done a good job of explaining himself but I disagree about peekercpa. On my one reread of the day I just don’t see anything that jumps out as scummy. If anything I think Blaster has pinged me more. But your very right about the referendum on Thing and once the vote seemed settled there hasn’t been much discussion about who we can lynch on day 2 in fact there really hasn’t been much commentary at all. Since I mentioned it I might as well state my thoughts about what to do for day 2. At this point we’ve had a fair bit of discussion and I think that Blasters motivation strategy should start being effective as we will have had 10 odd days of talking by the end of that and some patterns should have emerged. I’m not sure how the night mechanics are going to work but we should have some additional info at least based on who is killed and Thing’s status. With that I think we can go back and decide that those statements can be trusted and move on from that factual base. It is probably the engineer in me but I dislike looking at soft data and trying to draw conclusions and I think with some facts I might be able to stop saying that I don’t know. Well let me know if I’m just talking out my ass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doperville-mafia-new-players-welcome/448670.md?page=18)