# Dorner—Murderer, Martyr, or Both? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150 "2013-02-13T04:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/1 "2013-02-13T04:02:04Z")
[GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=681941) would have gone off the rails if I had provoked it the way I wanted to, so I trotted the (now charbroiled) calf over here. I’m kind of on the fence with this one. While I don’t categorically denounce revenge, taking out innocent people is unacceptable. On the other hand, I would have liked to see how it would have played out if he had been taken alive. Thoughts? Did Dorner meet a justified end, or did he deserve a shot at telling his side of the story? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/2 "2013-02-13T04:19:53Z")
Would we be having this conversation about whether or not he was unfairly fired if he’d been one of the countless other spree killers fired from working at the law firm, factory, various other small businesses, or, of course, the Post Office? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/3 "2013-02-13T04:28:28Z")
At this moment his death has not been confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/4 "2013-02-13T04:36:03Z")
Yes, it would appear that the alleged crispy critter may still be on the loose. This is getting interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/5 "2013-02-13T04:45:28Z")
The reports are saying now that the police haven’t gone into the cabin yet. Fortunately they’re not saying they went in and its empty. Whether he’s dead or not, he wasn’t denied a chance to tell his story. He chose to deal with it this way and sooner or later he’ll wind up dead as a very predictable consequence. There’s no disputing that he’s a murderer. He killed four people. Two were civilians, one was a police officer he ambushed. Whether he had a legitimate grievance with the LAPD I don’t know. I don’t give him the benefit of the doubt based on the whole murderous insanity thing, but it’s possible he was treated unfairly. If so, there were lots of civil and sane ways to deal with it. He picked none of those. You can’t be a martyr if you deal with a personal setback - even an unjust one - by taking revenge on innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/6 "2013-02-13T04:52:47Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Did Dorner meet a justified end, or did he deserve a shot at telling his side of the story? I’m confused–are these possibilities mutually exclusive? I certainly don’t see any possibility that he’s a martyr, though. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/7 "2013-02-13T04:53:59Z")
Hasn’t he told his story? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/8 "2013-02-13T04:57:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Hasn’t he told his story? Not in court or through means that sane or reasonable people use, but yes, he did at great length. I haven’t read the thing and I don’t plan to. Evidently it’s either the funniest horrible thing you’ll read all year, or the most horrible funny thing. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/9 "2013-02-13T05:02:47Z")
Definitely a murderer. Martyr? I doubt it. In a few weeks things will be back to normal for the LAPD. One would hope that their wanton disregard for citizens’ safety (as demonstrated by them shooting and injuring two asian women and a skinny white guy on two separate occasions while claiming they were looking for Dorner) would be more in the forefront due to this event as a sort of silver lining, but I severely doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/10 "2013-02-13T05:20:46Z")
Murderer. And also some kebab. He is about as much a martyr as Brandon McInerney is a symbol of the victims of sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/11 "2013-02-13T05:29:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m confused–are these possibilities mutually exclusive? No, just a semantically weak sentence. I should have either phrased it differently or omitted it entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/12 "2013-02-13T05:33:00Z")
Agreed, Magnusblitz, …one would hope that perhaps this could be a silver lining in all this…I’m skeptical but holding out some hope there can be some change ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/13 "2013-02-13T05:42:04Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > In a few weeks things will be back to normal for the LAPD. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/14 "2013-02-13T06:58:34Z")
Hope they won’t be back to their overall shitty normal, …hoping this will help bring about a better normal but I feel naive hoping this ---
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/15 "2013-02-13T10:50:04Z")
Murderer. No matter how egregious his firing may have been, how badly he had been treated, he had no right taking the lives of now 4 people to get his point across. He’s no better or more right than Aurora Theater Clown. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/16 "2013-02-13T11:05:35Z")
How could he be a martyr? Even _if_ every last thing in his manifesto is true, he wasn’t killed because of it (assuming he is dead). I think the law enforcement community in Southern California would have reacted the exact same way (including the overreactions) had he been murdering police officers and their families for any other reason. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/17 "2013-02-13T12:18:14Z")
I see no evidence Dorner is able to do complex mental processing. He knows he’s pissed. He knows his situation is based on “racism.” Beyond that he does not seem to have (or have had, depending on whether or not he is alive) the mental ability to create a very focused or coherent retaliation. Perhaps his rage blinded his reasoning; maybe he just doesn’t have a very good baseline mental capacity. But either way his actions so far have not reflected a reasonable ability to mount a coherent or cogent or effective response that is most likely to effect either revenge or change. “Martyr” is not self-defined. It’s defined by others. I’m sure many equally challenged individuals will see Dorner as a martyr, and will continue to live in frustration that this sort of martyrdom never seems to change anything. By any definition, he’s a murderer, having deliberately taken innocent lives of people who are unrelated to wrongs committed against him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/18 "2013-02-13T13:15:15Z")
Dorner is a murderer. LAPD is a gang of trigger happy thugs. These statements are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/19 "2013-02-13T13:25:12Z")
Perhaps he had a valid beef, but he chose to deal with it by murdering innocent people. He had the chance to surrender and tell his side, he chose instead to put himself in a situation where he wasn’t going to be taken alive. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/20 "2013-02-13T14:44:44Z")
He’s not a martyr. He’s a murderer. And his actions have caused many people to take a critical look at the LAPD and go WTF? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150.md?page=2)