# Dorner—Murderer, Martyr, or Both? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150 "2013-02-13T04:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/81 "2013-02-14T13:35:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > 1. LAPD should investigate the matter and refer it to disciplinary hearings, and the local prosecutor should have an independent investigation Would you care to wager what the outcome of such proceeedings will be? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/82 "2013-02-14T13:45:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > An error _is_ a choice. In this case, it is a choice based on wrong assumptions. > > You appear to think calling it a mistake makes it any less egregious. That’s not the case. > > Regards, > Shodan No - the correct legal term is [depraved indifference](http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depraved-indifference/) > [@](#): > > To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant’s conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting. The law recognises the difference between a ‘mistake’ and a ‘reckless disregard for a harm of which a person is aware’. And that is what happened here. The police had a reckless, depraved indifference to the consequences of their actions. They knew the possible awful consequences of pouring fire on an unidentified vehicle in residential area but they did it anyway. They knew the risk but the only ‘risk’ they were concerned with was their own lives. And this is what makes their actions a ‘mistake’ and not a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/83 "2013-02-14T14:37:55Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I said “Dark Knight”, which is a play on the movie the [_Dark Knight_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Knight_(film)). Ah, thanks for the correction. I believe I did one of your other quotes correct in a post just after that. I need to get to the movies more. The point I was making was that you and others seem to have crossed from ordinary admiration to outright sycophancy for this turkey. Not to mention an utter disregard for the concept of innocents with this comment, by **Honesty** : _“A real Dark Knight would have beheaded the hostages with the blessed black-handled scythe of righteousness +1”_ Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/84 "2013-02-14T14:43:47Z")
You’ve been whooshed, at least as far as the hostage beheading. Did you really think he was serious when he said “haversack of vengeance”? ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/85 "2013-02-14T15:08:25Z")
Der Trihs You speak the truth…I only hope the silver lining n all this can be the lapd will get their collective butts overturned in a full investigation and things can change for the better, but I’m very skeptical of any real change bc of the way its set up, officers usually don’t report other officers for assaults or misconduct, they all cover each others butts… ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/86 "2013-02-14T15:11:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’ve been whooshed, at least as far as the hostage beheading. Did you really think he was serious when he said “haversack of vengeance”? Yes I do. Did you read the MPSIMS thread and look over Honesty’s comments. If Honesty shows up again and says he was [You’ve been whooshed, at least as far as the hostage beheading. Did you really think he was serious when he said “haversack of vengeance”? [/QUOTE] Yes I do. Did you read the MPSIMS thread and look over Honesty’s comments? If Honesty shows up again and says he was [URL=[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16000499&postcount=216](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16000499&postcount=216)]whooshing here]([QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright;16005255), I’ll be stunned. And pleased. I was very disappointed to see this sort of reaction. The guy is hoping to become a PhD candidate in genetic studies, and as an educator this kind of nonsense spills over to impressionable students. We can do without that in higher education. And pleased. I was very disappointed to see this sort of reaction. The guy is hoping to become a PhD candidate in genetic studies, and as an educator this kind of nonsense spills over to impressionable students. We can do without that in higher education. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/87 "2013-02-14T15:22:37Z")
Fear itself, The results of the lapd investigating themselves? Why, they will conduct the investigation in a honest manner, with no backtracking, changing of stories or doctoring of written reports not using any white out ;). On those reports to change what happened, no, none of that will happen. It will be 100% truthful, of course. And the results will basically say the officers made a ‘tragic mistake’ (by mistaking two old women for a big black guy, and also for a young skinny surfer white kid.:rolleyes: …afterall its not that hard to see how someone could mistake a white skinny surfer boy for a big tall burly black man) and then they will remind the public of their kindness in having offered to give the traumatized torrance kid a rental car, since they totaled his, and also they were nice enough to get the two women a new car since they left nothing but bullet holes in theirs. Then they will shake hands with some city official ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/88 "2013-02-14T16:43:39Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Yes I do. Did you read the MPSIMS thread and look over Honesty’s comments. I’m sure he’s serious about his hatred for the LAPD, but I don’t think he’s serious about killing hostages and “winning” by murdering innocents. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/89 "2013-02-14T17:21:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m sure he’s serious about his hatred for the LAPD, but I don’t think he’s serious about killing hostages and “winning” by murdering innocents. Seemed pretty serious to me. Histrionic and grandiose, yes, but that is his style and not an indication of facetiousness. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/90 "2013-02-14T17:39:00Z")
The police did not act in defense of their own lives, and did not act to stop a threat. The threat must exist before they can take action to defeat it. Two Hispanic women delivering papers were not a threat, and therefore they had no reason to shoot. The bottom line is that they pulled the trigger without positively identifying their target. This is completely unacceptable. > [@](#): > > 1. LAPD violated police norms in firing on a car in the way they did +1. There was no reason for them to shoot, they did not know what they were shooting, and their execution was sloppy and dangerous to all involved. Unacceptable. > [@](#): > > All of that being said, in most war zone friendly fire accidents the shooters have made mistakes leading up to their decision to fire (often the soldiers getting shot have as well, but that isn’t as relevant in a police–\>civilian interaction), but that doesn’t mean the soldiers wanted to kill their own guys. I am really not on board with trying to draw a comparison between military and law enforcement use of force. The fundamental difference is that military forces are offensively minded. They are supposed to attack and kill the enemy, regardless of whether the enemy is presenting a threat. The standards for law enforcement are much higher. Law enforcement is supposed to apprehend people, and can only use lethal force if they are threatened. That said, I still think this is a flawed analogy. If a soldier uses their weapon without positively identifying their targets as hostile, they have committed the same mistake… they pulled the trigger without knowing what they were shooting. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/91 "2013-02-14T17:47:46Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Ah, thanks for the correction. I believe I did one of your other quotes correct in a post just after that. I need to get to the movies more. > > The point I was making was that you and others seem to have crossed from ordinary admiration to outright sycophancy for this turkey. Not to mention an utter disregard for the concept of innocents with this comment, > > by **Honesty** : > _“A real Dark Knight would have beheaded the hostages with the blessed black-handled scythe of righteousness +1”_ > > Sheesh. Yes, he did say that, which is why it is obvious that he is being facetious. He’s very clearly making fun of the idea of vigilantism and how it’s mere fantasy and roleplay, hence the movie and D&D references. No one who actually is for this sort of thing is going to use such mocking terms. And I’m not exactly sure why you couldn’t take up your beef about this in the thread in which it occurred, where he might actually respond, instead of making the rest of us defend him. Or, heck, create a pit thread. Though I guarantee it will be one of those that turns against the OP, as **Honesty** ’s words are that obvious. And, you know what? I’m reporting my own post–not for a warning, but maybe a note. It really is more about the poster than the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/92 "2013-02-14T17:54:12Z")
Good point. You can continue the discussion of **Honesty** ’s post in the MPSIMS thread or the Pit thread. This is a more general discussion of Dorner and not just the views of one poster who has had only minimal participation in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/93 "2013-02-14T19:55:47Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > The bottom line is that they pulled the trigger without positively identifying their target. This is completely unacceptable. There appears to be violent unanimous agreement on this point, but I guess it bears repeating one more time. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/94 "2013-02-14T20:50:46Z")
Solosam, and.vinyl turnip, of the different issues involved I thought this was glaringly obvious…😕 apparently there are a few confused stragglers so worth repeating ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/95 "2013-02-14T20:52:58Z")
“I’m sure he’s serious about his hatred for the LAPD, but I don’t think he’s serious about killing hostages and “winning” by murdering innocents” This is a reasonable interpretation of his statements because? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/96 "2013-02-14T20:59:08Z")
Wasn’t the shooting in Torrance done by members of the Torrance PD, not the LAPD? I’m also surprised so many people are certain nothing will happen to the officers who fired on the car. They may not go to prison, but I suspect barring dramatic evidence that we’re not aware of the city will be hit with a huge lawsuit and the officers involved will lose their badges or at least have their guns taken away and regulated to desk duty. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/97 "2013-02-14T21:41:53Z")
Ibn warraq, there were TWO police shootings…the lapd shot up the two hispanic women and the torrance pd shot at a young white skinny kid … ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/98 "2013-02-14T22:30:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wasn’t the shooting in Torrance done by members of the Torrance PD, not the LAPD? > > I’m also surprised so many people are certain nothing will happen to the officers who fired on the car. > > They may not go to prison, but I suspect barring dramatic evidence that we’re not aware of the city will be hit with a huge lawsuit and the officers involved will lose their badges or at least have their guns taken away and regulated to desk duty. I’ll bet you a nickel right now nothing is ever reported like that. They may well receive some minor administrative punishment, but nothing the public will ever know about, except in a general way. of course there will be a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/99 "2013-02-14T23:29:44Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > The results of the lapd investigating themselves? Why, they will conduct the investigation in a honest manner, with no backtracking, changing of stories or doctoring of written reports not using any white out ;). On those reports to change what happened, no, none of that will happen. It will be 100% truthful, of course. And the results will basically say the officers made a ‘tragic mistake’ (by mistaking two old women for a big black guy, and also for a young skinny surfer white kid.:rolleyes: Your snark displays a certain, shall we say, bias. Actually, every post you’ve made on this subject displays a bias. You simply will not accept facts. > [@](#): > > …afterall its not that hard to see how someone could mistake a white skinny surfer boy for a big tall burly black man) and then they will remind the public of their kindness in having offered to give the traumatized torrance kid a rental car, since they totaled his, and also they were nice enough to get the two women a new car since they left nothing but bullet holes in theirs. Then they will shake hands with some city official Once again: It is perfectly possible to mistake someone you cannot see for someone else. Does that make it justifiable? Could be yes, could be no. It would depend on the circumstances. But, hey, you’ve already decided that the cops are scum of the earth and are automatically guilty of whatever you think is bad. And, once again, before you go off and accuse me of defending someone’s illegal act: I am not defending anyone. Nor am I accusing anyone (except you). I’m simply pointing out the errors in your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/100 "2013-02-14T23:45:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Would you care to wager what the outcome of such proceeedings will be? I’m from the East Coast, so I only know about the LAPD from TV and movies. I’ve known of police officers in “bad shoots” in this part of the country losing their jobs, and I’ve heard of the occasional police officer nationwide who goes to jail for egregious misbehavior. (Didn’t the BART guy go to prison for shooting the guy in the back?) My guess would be they face some disciplinary action, but do not face criminal prosecution. I don’t know enough about the LAPD or the situation to make a wager. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150.md?page=6)