# Dorner—Murderer, Martyr, or Both? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150 "2013-02-13T04:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/101 "2013-02-14T23:48:04Z")
Your free to believe as you like, and equally so, for me. Its pretty clear to most people the cops could _not_ see who the hell they were firing at. ( obviously, because they would not see two old Hispanic women and somehow think two women are one black man? In the other case if the young skinny white kid, they also couldn’t make out who the hell was in the car, I think its fair to say most people would agree its pretty damm impossible to see a skinny young white kid, and think he is a realy large and tall black man. The suspects physical appearance could not have been MORE different than the innocent citizens they shot up, and I’m hoping this will help to bring much needed attention and real investigation. Two old hispanice women= one large black man… One skinny short white surfer kid= a noticeably tall and burly black man But as much as you think I’m biased, I think you are much more so, in defending police actions no matter how egregious or deadly. Even people who really like police are saying wth? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/102 "2013-02-14T23:49:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My guess would be they face some disciplinary action, but do not face criminal prosecution. I’d say that is pretty accurate, with the disciplinary action limited to a paid suspension, and perhaps a reduction in rank. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/103 "2013-02-15T00:21:58Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Your free to believe as you like, and equally so, for me. I’m kind of fond of basing my conclusions on actual evidence. But, hey, if the opposite works for you, go for it. > [@](#): > > Its pretty clear to most people the cops could _not_ see who the hell they were firing at. ( obviously, because they would not see two old Hispanic women and somehow think two women are one black man? In the other case if the young skinny white kid, they also couldn’t make out who the hell was in the car, I think its fair to say most people would agree its pretty damm impossible to see a skinny young white kid, and think he is a realy large and tall black man. Didn’t bother to actually read what I, or anyone else, wrote in the thread, did you? > [@](#): > > The suspects physical appearance could not have been MORE different than the innocent citizens they shot up, and I’m hoping this will help to bring much needed attention and real investigation. > > Two old hispanice women= one large black man… > > One skinny short white surfer kid= a noticeably tall and burly black man > > But as much as you think I’m biased, I think you are much more so, in defending police actions no matter how egregious or deadly. Even people who really like police are saying wth? Wow. I didn’t defend anyone. I pointed out your errors. Heck, I even predicted you’d accuse me of defending someone when I’m not defending anyone! ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/104 "2013-02-15T00:29:17Z")
Monty, Well your accusing me, so why not? You accused me of not reading anyone’s post,which could not be further than the truth ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/105 "2013-02-15T00:34:03Z")
Fine. You read them. Next time, try comprehending them. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/106 "2013-02-15T00:40:49Z")
Monty, I have an equal fondness, and do likewise Your snarky claim that I didn’t read what others wrote is bull, I wrote what alot of people wrote, there were a number of posters who don’t find it acceptable the cops didnt bother to identify first, who the hell they fired at, Also there were posters who pointed out the obvious majority who agree cops are not legally allowed to open fire in that way…they didnt bother to give any warnings or instructions to the occupants, they simply opened fire. Is this something you didn’t know? **excuses self to take some pepto bismol** ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/107 "2013-02-15T01:00:14Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > “I’m sure he’s serious about his hatred for the LAPD, but I don’t think he’s serious about killing hostages and “winning” by murdering innocents” > > This is a reasonable interpretation of his statements because? His posting history. And the language of the post. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wasn’t the shooting in Torrance done by members of the Torrance PD, not the LAPD? > > I’m also surprised so many people are certain nothing will happen to the officers who fired on the car. > > They may not go to prison, but I suspect barring dramatic evidence that we’re not aware of the city will be hit with a huge lawsuit and the officers involved will lose their badges or at least have their guns taken away and regulated to desk duty. Oh, well, that’s alright then. I thought they might just get a slap on the wrist, but if they’re going to be stuck with _desk duty_… ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/108 "2013-02-15T01:26:28Z")
Desk duty in lieu of prison time…l.it better be one hell of a nasty little slave type job where they have to file a mountain of papers everyday …picturing a literal mountain of papers, and with really complicated filing system, and if they mess up the lapd will announce in the paper they even f\*\*\*\*\* up filing papers …but at least didnt put bullet holes in them, no…wait, they might viciously shred the papers intentionally …I guess that would be the equivalent of how they would treat innocent pieces of paper ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/109 "2013-02-15T01:35:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh, well, that’s alright then. I thought they might just get a slap on the wrist, but if they’re going to be stuck with _desk duty_… Obviously, I think they’d deserve far worse. I know nothing about either the LAPD or the Torrance PD other than what’s from the movies, but here on the East Coast cops in comparable shooting have often lost both their badges and their pensions. I should add that my understanding is that anyone not allowed on the streets effectively is prevented from any promotions, meaning their stuck at the current rank for the rest of their lives. Unfortunately, while I do think there are many benefits to unions one of the things the public sector unions have done is make firing employees who screw up quite difficult, if for no other reason than firing public employees, including police officers, is usually really, really expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/110 "2013-02-15T02:09:32Z")
He’s banned? That was quick. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/111 "2013-02-15T02:34:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > He’s banned? That was quick. Huh? What are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/112 "2013-02-15T03:00:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? What are you referring to? Seemed for a moment there that I saw the word “BANNED” under Tollhouse’s user name. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/113 "2013-02-15T03:24:38Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Two old hispanice women= one large black man… > > One skinny short white surfer kid= a noticeably tall and burly black man Now, in all fairness they _may_ have been wearing hoodies… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/114 "2013-02-15T03:49:17Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Now, in all fairness they _may_ have been wearing hoodies… Ok, I’ll admit I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/115 "2013-02-15T12:25:13Z")
Let’s not forget [this incident](http://dailycurrant.com/2013/02/12/police-shoot-jazz-band-members-dorner-manhunt/) either. > [@](#): > > Three members of a jazz band were shot by Los Angeles police Monday afternoon in relation to a massive hunt for an avenging ex-cop, police and witnesses said. > > Police were reportedly acting on a tip in their search for Christopher Jordan Dorner when they stopped a van at an Arco station on La Cienega Boulevard near Interstate 405.The van was carrying three members of a Dave Brubeck tribute band and their manager. > > Police then allegedly started shooting at the blue 1989 Ford Aerostar, hitting three men and riddling the van with bullet holes. > [@](#): > > At a hastily-called news conference, LAPD Lt. Joseph Fryday said officers were following up on a tip that “a suspicious van was driving around Los Angeles, with Dave Brubeck music blasting from it at a high volume.” > > Fryday said Dorner admitted to being a fan of Brubeck, “which created the suspicion that Dorner might be in the van.” “Okay guys, remember. We’re looking for a large black man who mentioned he liked Take 5. Sure, that’s a van load of white guys but that is Take 5 playing. Lock and load.” > [@](#): > > In another case of mistaken identity, police rammed an innocent motorist off the road because his pickup matched the description of Dorner’s truck. > > San Diego police also cornered an innocent man while acting on a lead that Dorner was hiding out in a motel. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/116 "2013-02-15T15:34:01Z")
Is there a general sense here that the incompetence or racism of the LAPD has a bearing on whether or not Dorner was a martyr or a murderer? If so, what is that connection? If we take it as a given that the LAPD are themselves murderous racists, would that then improve one’s perspective of Dorner killing Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence? Would it improve one’s perspective on his ambush of the policemen? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/117 "2013-02-15T15:39:44Z")
That would be a minority view - held by **Honesty** (perhaps) and a few others. If you look at the Pit thread you’ll see the (overwhelming) majority viewpoint is that the LAPD’s faults are irrelevant because Dorner killed wholly innocent people with no real connection to it. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/118 "2013-02-15T15:43:19Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Is there a general sense here that the incompetence or racism of the LAPD has a bearing on whether or not Dorner was a martyr or a murderer? > > If so, what is that connection? > > If we take it as a given that the LAPD are themselves murderous racists, would that then improve one’s perspective of Dorner killing Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence? Would it improve one’s perspective on his ambush of the policemen? No connection. He was a murdering scumbag nutcase. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/119 "2013-02-15T15:55:11Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Is there a general sense here that the incompetence or racism of the LAPD has a bearing on whether or not Dorner was a martyr or a murderer? In the threads I’ve read and posted in, almost everybody has said very plainly that Dorner is a murderer even if the LAPD screwed him. You’ve posted a fair amount on this subject, haven’t you? I expect you’ve probably read the same things I have. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150/120 "2013-02-15T16:37:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > In the threads I’ve read and posted in, almost everybody has said very plainly that Dorner is a murderer even if the LAPD screwed him. You’ve posted a fair amount on this subject, haven’t you? I expect you’ve probably read the same things I have. Right. A: Dorner is/was a murdering psycho. B: The culture of the LAPD allows racist, trigger happy, fuck ups to flourish. (Most LAPD cops are great guys, mind you). It’s possible that B triggered A, but he was just waiting to go off anyway. And in no way did B cause or justify A. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dorner-murderer-martyr-or-both/650150.md?page=7)