# double chin exercises? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721 "2010-03-17T02:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/41 "2010-03-19T22:04:40Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I don’t see how they could put on 4.3lbs of muscle mass in that time. Seriously, man, it’s impossible. It’s superhero fiction levels of muscle boost. > > There are only two possible explantions - they had Captain America’s super-soldier serum, or it wasn’t all muscle mass. The former is ridiculous, and the latter is possible - so why would one assume the comic-book explanation rather than the possible explanation? > > Even bodybuilders on steroids would consider that a pretty incredible rate of muscle increase. Since these people were neither bodybuilders nor on steroids, there’s only one possible explanation available - it wasn’t all muscle mass. > > I’ve known many dozens of people on serious muscle-mass increasing training programs (heavy resistance training, every day, masses of protein - doing everything right). I - unfortunately - know that some of those used anabolic steroids, much to my dismay. _None_ of them achieved the rate you cite. > > Sorry. It’s simply not possible to put muscle on at that rate without delving into sci-fi. Unless you have some evidence that someone has achieved this miraculous exercise regime (and presumably they’re a billionaire now, with a discovery like that), “I assume fat-free mass means muscle mass” isn’t going to cut it when there’s a much less fantastical explanation. I think the difference is that you’re thinking of adding 4.3 pounds of muscle mass to already heavily trained individuals, whereas I’m thinking of adding 4.3 pounds of muscle mass to untrained individuals (the people in the study). Obviously the rate of muscle gain slows down, or bodybuilders would all weigh 100,000 pounds, but I bet all those bodybuilders added muscle at an extreme rate when they first started training. My first year of training I added about 40 pounds while keeping my body fat levels in the single-digit range; by my fifth year of training I wasn’t really adding any weight at all (wasn’t bodybuilding, so this was a good thing). Maybe it wasn’t all muscle, but a lot of it was. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/42 "2010-03-19T22:06:10Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > I assume you could link me to some studies that showed how much muscle people could expect to gain in 3 months time. For myself, back when I was younger, I went from a pencil-necked geek to someone who was much more impressed with his muculature in the course of a summer. I know I gained more than 4 lbs, and since I had water weight before, I am assuming I didn’t put on additional water weight. Are you saying muscle holds more water than fat? I am trying to follow your claim here, and getting lost. Well, yes. Muscle does hold a lot of water. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/43 "2010-03-19T22:09:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I think the difference is that you’re thinking of adding 4.3 pounds of muscle mass to already heavily trained individuals, whereas I’m thinking of adding 4.3 pounds of muscle mass to untrained individuals (the people in the study). Obviously the rate of muscle gain slows down, or bodybuilders would all weigh 100,000 pounds, but I bet all those bodybuilders added muscle at an extreme rate when they first started training. My first year of training I added about 40 pounds while keeping my body fat levels in the single-digit range; by my fifth year of training I wasn’t really adding any weight at all (wasn’t bodybuilding, so this was a good thing). Maybe it wasn’t all muscle, but a lot of it was. :shrug: OK. I don’t really have a dog in this race. I’m willing to accept to believe that you believe you put on 4 lbs of muscle in that time. I’ve never seen any evidence to suggest that’s possible, and nobody seems willing to provide any (and if they have it, PLEASE show me it, because I could use a million dollars), but I guess I don’t have a problem with you believing it’s possible. But from my POV, the conversations’s become a little silly with a lot o dubious anecdotal evidence of miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/44 "2010-03-19T22:14:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > My first year of training I added about 40 pounds while keeping my body fat levels in the single-digit range. Sorry, I gotta go back to this. _40 pounds of muscle in one year?_ Really? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/45 "2010-03-19T22:23:42Z")
Here’s a good thread to look at: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12081027](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12081027) We discuss how the maximum possible muscle growth rate is - at the low end (my assertion) 1lb per month, and at the high end (other assertions) 18-19 lbs per year. Certainly nothing in the region of 40lbs in a year. 4lbs in 12 weeks meets my assertion for bodybuilders using steroids, so I guess it’s possible in really extreme cases (but I assume we’re not talking bodybuilders here, let alone steroids - in fact we’re talking _cardio_ exercise, as cited). Sorry, guys. I can’t see anything that leads me to beleive that could possibly be muscle growth. And claims of 40lbs of muscle in a year are insane. But I accept I can’t cite this is any way - I’ve just never seen this happen any more than I’ve seen people fly, and I’ve never seen _any_ evidence that it’s possible. I’m willing to be proved wrong (heck, I’d love to be proved wrong). Someone find me a good cite, and I’ll believe it. I’ll be rich pretty quick, too, which is nice! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/46 "2010-03-20T00:21:35Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Here’s a good thread to look at: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12081027](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12081027) > > We discuss how the maximum possible muscle growth rate is - at the low end (my assertion) 1lb per month . . . > Someone find me a good cite, and I’ll believe it. I’ll be rich pretty quick, too, which is nice! 🙂 I think the key word in this quote is “assertion.” Shouldn’t you be bringing some cites to the table? Regardless, I did your work for you. Here’s [one cite](http://kaatsu.jp/pdf/0102/12Yasuda.pdf) from the Department of Exercise and Sport Science,Tokyo Metropolitan University that says that muscle cross sectional area increased by 7.8% from two weeks of resistance training. This was based on muscle biopsies and MRI scans, so lets call it accurate. Given that the average person comprises 42% skeletal muscle mass (Marieb, Elaine; Katja Hoehn (2007). Human Anatomy & Physiology (7th ed.). Pearson Benjamin Cummings. p. 317.), that means that two weeks of resistance training would add muscle mass of 3.27% of total body weight. Take a 200 pound man, and that’s an additional 6.6 pounds of muscle from two weeks of resistance training. Cite’s in your court, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/47 "2010-03-20T00:27:08Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Sorry, I gotta go back to this. _40 pounds of muscle in one year?_ Really? 40 pounds of additional weight in one year while maintaining single digit body fat. Some of it was water weight (I was taking creatine, so this was unavoidable), but I have workout diaries from that time and I went from 185 to 225 and I had my body fat measured by calipers at 225. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/48 "2010-03-20T00:42:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I think the key word in this quote is “assertion.” Shouldn’t you be bringing some cites to the table? > > Regardless, I did your work for you. Here’s [one cite](http://kaatsu.jp/pdf/0102/12Yasuda.pdf) from the Department of Exercise and Sport Science,Tokyo Metropolitan University that says that muscle cross sectional area increased by 7.8% from two weeks of resistance training. This was based on muscle biopsies and MRI scans, so lets call it accurate. Given that the average person comprises 42% skeletal muscle mass (Marieb, Elaine; Katja Hoehn (2007). Human Anatomy & Physiology (7th ed.). Pearson Benjamin Cummings. p. 317.), that means that two weeks of resistance training would add muscle mass of 3.27% of total body weight. Take a 200 pound man, and that’s an additional 6.6 pounds of muscle from two weeks of resistance training. > > Cite’s in your court, buddy. It’s still in yours; that’s not an applicable cite. “Muscle cross sectional area”? This is _not_ muscle mass. You can’t take a percentage increase in cross sectional area and apply it to the weight of a man. Increasing muscle size (largely through water) is fairly easy. That’s not muscle mass. I can increase muscle size temporarily in a one-hour workout. The muscle mass has not increased in this period. Two weeks of intensive training can increase muscle _size_ (your cross-sectional area) drastically, but stop for two weeks and it shrinks right back down. It’s not added mass. And I reiterate - “I make this assertion - prove it’s untrue” is not valid. I _can’t_ cite a negative, and you know it. I’m not asserting anything other than that I do not believe it is possible to do what is being claimed, and both cites so far have not proved this claim. So, to make clear my position - in case I’m not being clear enough, which is possible - I do _not_ believe that the claimed increase in muscle mass is possible in the stated timeframe; it is far beyond my relams of experience. I have asked for evidence that it is possible, but not yet received any. “fat-free tissue” and “cross-sectional area” are not muscle mass. You can’t just pick phrases you think sound similar - the studies cited don’t use the prhase “muscle mass” for a reason. And 40lbs of muscle mass in a year is far beyond the realms of human capability (in the sense that I’ve never seen anyone accomplish even half of that - including people using steroids). Either you have superpowers, or something else was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/49 "2010-03-20T00:50:24Z")
Incidentally - also single digit body fat for an _entire year_? That’s _remarkable_. That puts you at Mr Universe levels (and far beyond them - they don’t maintain that for a year, just for a competition). I commend you, man. seriously. You’re the fittest man in the universe! What are you doing posting on a messageboard instead of sharing your secret with the world and making millions? 😃 With that level body fat and your muscle mass gain, you can win worldwide bodybuilding competitions easily. I think a picture is in order! Because you’re gonna make He Man look like a couch potato! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/50 "2010-03-20T00:53:16Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Here’s a good thread to look at: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12081027](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12081027) > > We discuss how the maximum possible muscle growth rate is - at the low end (my assertion) 1lb per month, and at the high end (other assertions) 18-19 lbs per year. Heh, I read that thread you linked to. It consists of a couple unsupported assertions by you (which I guess we should just accept unquestioningly because you’re apparently a personal trainer), and some claim by someone named EmAnJ that the maximum muscle mass you can gain in a year is 18.25 pounds. Wow, only 18.25 pounds, that seems low. And awfully specific. And based on what sounded to me to be bullshit reasoning. I felt the need to track down his cite. Wait, it wasn’t a cite, it was an unsupported quote from someone named Dr. Michael Colgan. And on searching, EmAnJ’s exact quote seems to be repeated verbatim all over the internet by just about everyone but the actual Dr. Michael Colgan. Who is Dr. Michael Colgan? Well, turns out he has an internet site. What he doesn’t have are any published journal articles. What he does have are a couple of crappy articles about how your nutritional deficiencies can cause a whole host of problems, followed by (Coincidence!) an offer to sell you some supplements designed to overcome the very nutritional deficiencies that Dr. Michael Colgan so kindly warned you about. How generous of the man. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/51 "2010-03-20T01:10:34Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > It’s still in yours; that’s not an applicable cite. “Muscle cross sectional area”? This is _not_ muscle mass. CSA is the standard method of measuring muscle hypertrophy. > [@](#): > > I can increase muscle size temporarily in a one-hour workout. The muscle mass has not increased in this period. Two weeks of intensive training can increase muscle _size_ (your cross-sectional area) drastically, but stop for two weeks and it shrinks right back down. It’s not added mass. You’re right, that’s added blood flow, and wouldn’t result in an increase in muscle CSA. > [@](#): > > And I reiterate - “I make this assertion - prove it’s untrue” is not valid. I _can’t_ cite a negative, and you know it. I’m not asserting anything other than that I do not believe it is possible to do what is being claimed, and both cites so far have not proved this claim. You’re not being asked to prove a negative, you’re being asked to prove anything at all. Cite any of your claims. Cite any paper showing average mucle mass gain. Anything, and I’ll review it. Anything at all, but stop with your unsupported assertions. > [@](#): > > And 40lbs of muscle mass in a year is far beyond the realms of human capability (in the sense that I’ve never seen anyone accomplish even half of that - including people using steroids). Either you have superpowers, or something else was going on. Wait, you expect me to swallow your unsupported assertions, but you question mine? It was my first year of training, I was a young male in an intensive athletic training program. My teammates had similar results. If you’ve never seen anything like that before, then I don’t know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/52 "2010-03-20T12:55:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You’re not being asked to prove a negative, you’re being asked to prove anything at all. Cite any of your claims. Cite any paper showing average mucle mass gain. Anything, and I’ll review it. Anything at all, but stop with your unsupported assertions. This is getting silly. As I’ve repeatedly stated, I can’t prove it’s not possible. You are the person claiming it is, so I’m asking for proof of that. “Prove it isn’t” is pretty childish. You are asking me to prove a negative and are now reducing this conversation to semantics. If your response to anyone who challenges your claims asking for proof is simply to ask them to prove you’re wrong, then there’s nothing more to be said here. other than that the claim remains univerified. > [@](#): > > Wait, you expect me to swallow your unsupported assertions, but you question mine? Well, at least you’ve finally admitted you’re making them. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/53 "2010-03-20T13:03:10Z")
Can I get a clarification here: you are saying that you - and a whole bunch of other people - put on _40lbs of muscle mass in a period of one year_, and that at the same time you all retained \*single-digit body fat \*for that entire year? Just to make sure I’m not misunderstanding the claim being made. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/54 "2010-03-20T16:46:59Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > This is getting silly. As I’ve repeatedly stated, I can’t prove it’s not possible. You are the person claiming it is, so I’m asking for proof of that. And I’ve repeatedly told you, I’m not asking for proof that it’s not possible. I’m asking for any evidence at all of average muscle gain of untrained individuals. If you can’t understand that that’s not proving a negative then there’s no point in continuing this conversation. I’ve said several times that I’m not asking you to prove a negative. I’ve said several times that I’m asking you to provide evidence of average muscle gain in untrained individuals engaged in resistance training programs. If you are incapable of understanding that that’s not proving a negative then we have nothing further to discuss. I’ll say it once again so that you get a second shot at understanding what I’m asking for; provide any cite, that you find acceptable, that shows average muscle gain in untrained individuals. You’ve repeatedly said it’s not possible to gain (I think) 10 pounds of muscle in a year. That opinion must have been informed by something. Provide the “something” that informed that opinion. To remind you, I provided cites of muscle gain in untrained individuals that directly contradicted your claims. You argued against my cites, and claimed the doctors and scientists who ran the studies to explicitly measure gains in muscle hypertrophy , well you claim those same doctors mistook increased blood flow for muscle hypertrophy. That’s a pretty bold claim. > [@](#): > > Well, at least you’ve finally admitted you’re making them. There’s no _finally_ involved here. I’m fully aware that my claims of muscle gain are unsupported assertions; that’s why I argued by actually doing research and providing cites to journal articles, something which you have conspicuously failed to do. I don’t expect my unsupported assertions to carry any weight, which is a level of self-awareness that you should aspire to. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/55 "2010-03-20T16:55:37Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Can I get a clarification here: you are saying that you - and a whole bunch of other people - put on _40lbs of muscle mass in a period of one year_, and that at the same time you all retained \*single-digit body fat \*for that entire year? > > Just to make sure I’m not misunderstanding the claim being made. Lucky me, I actually saved my training diaries from 30 years ago. Starting weight 187 pounds at 4% body fat. 12 and a bit months later, 226 pounds at 9% body fat. Body fat was only measured twice, so it might have been higher in between. Took 20g/d of creatine the whole period, so there was some water weight gain. Actually, I’m not interested in discussing this; you either believe me or you don’t, and I don’t really care. In my last post I told you what I expected of you; cites showing muscle gain in untrained individuals. And don’t try your cop-out of I’m asking you to prove a negative, because I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/56 "2010-03-22T00:45:09Z")
[Here](http://startingstrength.com/articles/novice_effect_rippetoe.pdf) (warning: PDF) is a claim from Mark Rippetoe that an untrained athlete added 31lb of lean body mass in 6 weeks (though he calls him an “outstanding example” and “genetically gifted”). > [@Candyman74](#): > > Incidentally - also single digit body fat for an _entire year_? That’s _remarkable_. That puts you at Mr Universe levels (and far beyond them - they don’t maintain that for a year, just for a competition). Single digit bodyfat for men doesn’t seem that unattainable for someone training seriously. The figures seem to vary but according to the [American Council on Exercise](http://www.acefitness.org/blog/112/what-are-the-guidelines-for-percentage-of-body-fat/): Essential Fat: 2-5% **Athletes: 6-13%** Fitness: 14-17% Average: 18-24% It’s very lean, but not unrealistically or unhealthily so. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/57 "2010-03-22T02:37:50Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Can I get a clarification here: you are saying that you - and a whole bunch of other people - put on _40lbs of muscle mass in a period of one year_, and that at the same time you all retained \*single-digit body fat \*for that entire year? > > Just to make sure I’m not misunderstanding the claim being made. Here we go, I did the research that you failed to do: > [@](#): > > [How much lean body mass can a person reasonably expect to gain in one year](http://www.gssiweb.com/Article_Detail.aspx?articleid=60&level=3&topic=4)? > > Lemon [Peter Lemon, Ph.D. Kent State University Schools of Biomedical Sciences and Exercise, Leisure, and Sport]: This is an extremely difficult question to answer because it depends on a variety of factors including, but not limited to, prior heavy-resistance-training experience, genetic predisposition, body mass, gender, diet, training program used, motivation, and the use of anabolic agents (drugs). If one examines a group of individuals in whom most of these factors are maximized (except the drug use), e.g., 18-25-year-old male body builders or football players, it is possible to observe body mass increases of approximately 20% during the first year of regular heavy resistance training. My 40 pounds of weight gain reflected an increase of 22% in body mass, so it looks like I was right on the money in terms of what’s expected from a year of training. > [@](#): > > Butterfield : In well-controlled studies there appears to be a maximum rate–2-3 gm/d–at which nitrogen can be incorporated into protein. At this rate of nitrogen accumulation, an estimated 18.75 g of protein or 93.75 g of lean tissue (protein constitutes about 20% of lean tissue) could theoretically be added to the body mass every day, resulting in a gain of 75.37 lb. of lean tissue in a year. However, for reasons we do not entirely understand, this maximal rate of tissue accretion cannot be sustained, and actual lean-mass gains are in line with those mentioned by Drs. Lemon and Stone. Also, because the relative stimulus of a program of weight training and increased dietary energy is greater in the early stages of the program than during later phases, larger gains in lean mass will occur at the initiation of a weight-gain program. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721/58 "2010-03-22T20:50:03Z")
Just yesterday I saw a commercial for a gadget that eliminates the double chin which made me think of this thread: [https://www.necklineslimmer.com/?MID=786443](https://www.necklineslimmer.com/?MID=786443) I have no idea if it works (and the bright “As Seen on TV” makes me believe it probably doesn’t) but I thought y’all would get a kick out of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-chin-exercises/532721.md?page=2)