# Double decker buses – why aren't there more of them? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 4, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985 "2013-03-04T09:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/41 "2013-03-05T08:56:24Z")
Missed Edit window: It’s only when I’m in another city without that system that I see how much of a pain in the ass it is when everybody has to buy their ticket from the bus driver. The buses become very late and it makes you very nervous when you spend 5 minutes at one stop waiting for 10 people to dig out their purses. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/42 "2013-03-05T09:40:13Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve ridden double-deckers in Las Vegas (already mentioned) and Berlin. Good thing I got to this thread before **DMark**. > > One interesting thing about the transit in Europe is that the fares are not enforced the same way as the U.S. There aren’t turnstiles at the subway and drivers don’t take the fare when you get on the trolleys. Instead, there are travelling inspectors. They ride the system and can demand that passengers show them a valid ticket (either a monthly pass or a time-stamped, single-ride ticket); if you don’t have one, it’s a hefty fine. One result is that stops are much quicker. You don’t have a line of people waiting to get in just one door to swipe their card or pay a fare. Just throw all the doors open, people off, people on, and go. > > (I don’t remember for sure if the Berlin buses were on that system, but most of the subways and trolleys I used were. Haven’t ridden in London; from the description of the conductor and driver system of the past, I’d guess they’re more like the American method.) True of much of mainland Europe, not true of the UK. Here, we still have to present our passes/touch in/pay the fair to the driver at the front (although some busy routes insist that you buy your pass/ticket in advance). It would be faster if we didn’t, but perhaps Transport for London doesn’t trust us. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/43 "2013-03-05T09:43:49Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > Missed Edit window: It’s only when I’m in another city without that system that I see how much of a pain in the ass it is when everybody has to buy their ticket from the bus driver. The buses become very late and it makes you very nervous when you spend 5 minutes at one stop waiting for 10 people to dig out their purses. Transport for London incentives people to carry a prepaid/top up card called an Oyster. If you carry this card, then you simply [touch in](http://www.eynsfordcollege.co.uk/pre-arrival-information.html) when you get on the bus, and the fair is a full half price of the ticket you can buy on the spot. So very few people pay in cash. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/44 "2013-03-05T11:14:26Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Transport for London incentives people to carry a prepaid/top up card called an Oyster. If you carry this card, then you simply [touch in](http://www.eynsfordcollege.co.uk/pre-arrival-information.html) when you get on the bus, and the fair is a full half price of the ticket you can buy on the spot. So very few people pay in cash. And you can use the English Region senior-citizen passes on London Buses. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/45 "2013-03-05T13:21:30Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Double decker buses for the win. 😛 > > We have one in New Zealand which does a round trip from Queenstown to Arrowtown and is very popular. [http://www.doubledeckerbus.co.nz/](http://www.doubledeckerbus.co.nz/) > > Incidentally I’m gratified the double deckers are still built (presumably) and operated. A few years ago I read that London was no longer using them but hopefully that was wrong. You are ill informed. The double deckers that London no longer uses ( except for tourists ) are the old models which you got on at the back. They required a conductor, and the new ones enter at the front, and give money to the driver. In a country where one is likely to be mugged on a bus, like, presumably, the US, I’d prefer a single level where the driver can see what is going on. Had a few incidents on the upper deck of a London bus. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/46 "2013-03-05T13:23:50Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > True of much of mainland Europe, not true of the UK. Here, we still have to present our passes/touch in/pay the fair to the driver at the front (although some busy routes insist that you buy your pass/ticket in advance). It would be faster if we didn’t, but perhaps Transport for London doesn’t trust us. The Docklands light rail has the random inspector system. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/47 "2013-03-05T13:58:43Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > The Docklands light rail has the random inspector system. But it also has touch-in, touch-out machines and physical barriers at some of the stations. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/48 "2013-03-05T14:18:22Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > The Docklands light rail has the random inspector system. The whole transport network has random inspector checks. But we still need to touch in by the driver of the bus, or go through ticket barriers at tube stations. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/49 "2013-03-05T20:36:25Z")
Having to pay the driver, or show a pass if you’ve got one, is the biggest hold-up to rapid bus transit when it stops frequently. I much preferred conductors. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/50 "2013-03-05T21:09:07Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Having to pay the driver, or show a pass if you’ve got one, is the biggest hold-up to rapid bus transit when it stops frequently. I much preferred conductors. Chicago got rid of all the conductors on CTA trains a decade ago. Now the train driver has to make the announcements and open and close the doors as well, making sure everyone is safe. The presumed cost savings in labor allowed them to increase the frequency of trains. St. Louis has a check ticket system on their light rail system like LA does. I realize it is fast, but I always found it creepy and vaguely “Papers please!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/51 "2013-03-06T05:25:50Z")
I believe all of the North American light rail systems—though not the surviving streetcar systems such as Boston, New Orleans, and San Francisco—use “self-service” fare collection with roving inspectors. Portland tried it on buses for a while but it didn’t work out. LA also tried it on heavy-rail Metro trains but has since installed barrier turnstiles. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/52 "2013-03-06T18:25:01Z")
If you pooped in the water tank of the toilet in the top floor of a Megabus, that’d be an upper decker-upper decker. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/53 "2013-03-06T19:09:30Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > If you pooped in the water tank of the toilet in the top floor of a Megabus, that’d be an upper decker-upper decker. Lucky for us, there is only a toilet on the lower floor. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/54 "2013-03-06T19:24:05Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > Portland tried it on buses for a while but it didn’t work out. LA also tried it on heavy-rail Metro trains but has since installed barrier turnstiles. Didn’t work out how? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/55 "2013-03-07T05:09:26Z")
From Wagner, Daniel W, Wesley Harper, and Oliver Schueftan. _Self-service Fare Collection on Buses in Portland, Ore._ U.S. Dept. of Transportation, Urban Mass Transportation Administration, 1986. NTIS Report Number: PB87-146726 Problems encountered with SSFC on buses in Portland included increased fare evasion, high enforcement costs, no productivity improvements, low surcharge/fine collections, overburdened courts, and increased vandalism. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/56 "2013-03-08T22:58:53Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Are they still running those? I loved them as a kid. Metrolink and Coaster commuter trains in the L.A. and San Diego areas all use double decked Bombardier coaches, IIRC. I doubt if double decked buses could work in L.A, because there are too many low freeway underpasses. ---
**Author:** ![Postariti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Postariti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Postariti)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/57 "2013-03-09T02:09:36Z")
I think freeway underpasses is probably the main answer in the United States. All the big cities I’m familiar with are full of them. Don’t electric lines running across streets cause problems? Or does the city rewire when they plan to use double decker buses? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/58 "2013-03-09T05:57:55Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > From Wagner, Daniel W, Wesley Harper, and Oliver Schueftan. _Self-service Fare Collection on Buses in Portland, Ore._ U.S. Dept. of Transportation, Urban Mass Transportation Administration, 1986. NTIS Report Number: PB87-146726 > > Problems encountered with SSFC on buses in Portland included increased fare evasion, high enforcement costs, no productivity improvements, low surcharge/fine collections, overburdened courts, and increased vandalism. That’s why we can’t have nice things. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/59 "2013-03-10T09:10:42Z")
Isn’t it because of the difficulty in finding drivers for the top? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985/60 "2013-04-05T19:31:43Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > I’m sure they would have a better safety record if they were picking up and dropping off in the bus station, but I am a cheap bastard, and if curbside service is what gets me these insanely cheap fares, I’m willing to freeze at the curb. The _majority_ of my Megabus trips have been for $1. Well, if you’re going to Kansas City on August 22 or coming back to Chicago on August 25, you won’t be going for $1. I just got the round trip for 1 each way plus .50 handling. $2.50 for over 1,000 miles of travel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-decker-buses-why-arent-there-more-of-them/651985.md?page=4)