# Double standard regarding nukes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586 "2009-10-04T20:39:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SweetLucy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@SweetLucy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SweetLucy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/1 "2009-10-04T20:39:02Z")
I’m by no means a fan of Iran’s government, but I tend to believe their bark’s worse than their bite. Their leaders are fools, but not idiots. But something I’ve wondered for much of my life is…why is it supposedly OK for the US and our allies to possess nuclear weapons, but for us to condemn other countries for wanting nukes. Being American, I give my country the benefit of the doubt that we would use nukes only in cases of absolute self-defense. I believe this despite the fact that I’ve never been 100% sold that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were truly necessary uses of the bomb. Who’s to say that Iran wouldn’t want nukes truly for self-defense? Maybe they really feel afraid that the US and/or Israel will nuke them first, and by the tone of a lot of our rhetoric perhaps that’s not an unreasonable fear. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/2 "2009-10-04T20:56:17Z")
> [@SweetLucy](#): > > …why is it supposedly OK for the US and our allies to possess nuclear weapons, but for us to condemn other countries for wanting nukes. We’re the good guys. They’re the bad guys. It’s okay for the good guys (Israel, India, etc.) to own nukes. The bad guys, not so much. That’s really what it boils down to. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/3 "2009-10-04T21:04:03Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > We’re the good guys. They’re the bad guys. It’s okay for the good guys (Israel, India, etc.) to own nukes. The bad guys, not so much. > > That’s really what it boils down to. Are you at all familiar with the nuclear non-proliferation treaty? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/4 "2009-10-04T21:08:17Z")
> [@SweetLucy](#): > > …why is it supposedly OK for the US and our allies to possess nuclear weapons, but for us to condemn other countries for wanting nukes. [Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty) [Text of the TREATY ON THE NON-PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS](http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt2.htm) Of course, the npt is just another treaty like the ABM treaty. Countries are free to withdraw from it if they feel it’s in their best interest to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/5 "2009-10-04T21:21:29Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty) “Only four recognized sovereign states are not parties to the treaty: India, Israel, Pakistan and North Korea.” Hence, Iran has no place building nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/6 "2009-10-04T21:30:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Hence, Iran has no place building nukes. Yup, and we’ve no evidence that they _are_ building nukes, so the treaty behooves us to help with their peaceful, civilian nuclear program. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/7 "2009-10-05T00:59:52Z")
> [@SweetLucy](#): > > But something I’ve wondered for much of my life is…why is it supposedly OK for the US and our allies to possess nuclear weapons . . . And for the Soviet Union/Russia and the People’s Republic of China. That doesn’t answer the question, but at least asks it properly. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/8 "2009-10-05T14:05:50Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > We’re the good guys. They’re the bad guys. It’s okay for the good guys (Israel, India, etc.) to own nukes. The bad guys, not so much. I am not sure US foreign policy has ever regarded India as “the good guys.” Even though they are. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/9 "2009-10-05T14:11:47Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > We’re the good guys. They’re the bad guys. It’s okay for the good guys (Israel, India, etc.) to own nukes. The bad guys, not so much. > > That’s really what it boils down to. How come they’re the bad guys and we’re the good guys? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/10 "2009-10-05T14:17:04Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Yup, and we’ve no evidence that they _are_ building nukes, so the treaty behooves us to help with their peaceful, civilian nuclear program. Iran has also been violating the NPT and the Additional Protocols. [Link.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/09/30/iran.iaea.nuclear/index.html) If you’re saying that Iran hasn’t been caught with “smoking gun” evidence of a nuclear weapons program, fine. If you are also implying that they are a member of good standing of the NPT, that’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/11 "2009-10-05T14:40:37Z")
So fine then? Many people seem to take joy in conflating the later with “OMG they’re building bombs and gonna kill us all NOW!!!” Condoleezza put that sort of loose talk nicely in perspective in 2002 when she said [“We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”](http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/iraq.debate/), as part of the campaign to build support for invading Iraq. Turns out there was no bomb program, and Condi’s words were critical in misleading the American people into supporting the invasion. We don’t want that sort of cockup to happen with Iran now, or do we? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/12 "2009-10-05T15:00:16Z")
Are you saying that if Iran is building nuclear bombs, we’re going to invade? I think it is entirely possible that Iran has a nuclear weapons program and our response need not be to bomb or invade them. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/13 "2009-10-05T15:07:44Z")
There’s certainly talk of invasion: > [@](#): > > While the senators supported tough sanctions as a first step, they also seemed open to military action if those fail to end Iran’s nuclear program. > > Said Graham: “If we use military action against Iran, we should not only destroy their nuclear facilities, we should destroy their ability to wage conventional war.” [http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/1009/Dem\_GOP\_senators\_call\_for\_tougher\_sanctions\_on\_Iran.html?showall](http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/1009/Dem_GOP_senators_call_for_tougher_sanctions_on_Iran.html?showall) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/14 "2009-10-05T15:10:46Z")
And people, especially on this board, have predicted 13 of the last zero invasions of Iran. It ain’t going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/15 "2009-10-05T15:19:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Iran has also been violating the NPT and the Additional Protocols. [Link.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/09/30/iran.iaea.nuclear/index.html) If you’re saying that Iran hasn’t been caught with “smoking gun” evidence of a nuclear weapons program, fine. If you are also implying that they are a member of good standing of the NPT, that’s not the case. As I understand the situation, the claim that they have broken the treaty by not reporting the facility at start of construction is false, as they have not ratified the Additional Protocol of the NPT, which is where that requirement is laid out. So they only need to report 6 months prior to introducing the nuclear material. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/16 "2009-10-05T15:37:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And people, especially on this board, have predicted 13 of the last zero invasions of Iran. It ain’t going to happen. That’s nice. Do you have any other arguments in favor of making misleading claims about Iran’s nuclear program? I’m just not seeing how this one makes it OK to exaggerate the bomb threat. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/17 "2009-10-05T16:15:38Z")
If you’re trying to make me say that Iran has a hidden nuclear weapons program so you can recycle “we shouldn’t go to war for a lie” slogans from 2003, then I’m not biting. I don’t know if Iran has a nuclear weapons program or not. It’s a factual question. What is clear is that the IAEA does not have evidence of a nuclear weapons program, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Iran also has a poor record of cooperating with IAEA inspectors, as it has suspended its cooperation consistent with the Additional Protocol years ago, making declarations and inspections of various sites like pulling teeth. This is not the type of behavior that should be acceptable, and there should be questions about why Iran is doing that. Again, this is a factual question and it appears that some of the facts about the entire spectrum of Iran’s nuclear activities are not known or being obscured. You’ve already come to your conclusion, it seems, but I will wait until more evidence is in. Even if they are developing a weapon, that is not a justification for war. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/18 "2009-10-05T16:33:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Again, this is a factual question and it appears that some of the facts about the entire spectrum of Iran’s nuclear activities are not known or being obscured. Yup it’s a factual question alright. Let’s just not delude ourselves into thinking that the only ones who are making it hard to see the truth of the matter are the Iranians. There are plenty in the US and elsewhere making shit up and pretending it doesn’t stink. There’s no reason to give purveyors of untruth a pass, even if they are ‘the good guys’. [Top Things you Think You Know about Iran that are not True](http://www.juancole.com/2009/10/top-things-you-think-you-know-about.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/19 "2009-10-05T17:06:58Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Yup it’s a factual question alright. Let’s just not delude ourselves into thinking that the only ones who are making it hard to see the truth of the matter are the Iranians. There are plenty in the US and elsewhere making shit up and pretending it doesn’t stink. There’s no reason to give purveyors of untruth a pass, even if they are ‘the good guys’. > > [Top Things you Think You Know about Iran that are not True](http://www.juancole.com/2009/10/top-things-you-think-you-know-about.html) Seriously, answering stupid questions doesn’t shine much light on real issues. Ok, so Iran hasn’t invaded anyone… but I don’t notice a “question” there about why and how Iranian equipment made its way across the border to Iraq to be used in roadside bombs against our troops. Nor do I see a question about whether Iran’s support to Hamas helps to fuel violence in the Mid-East. But, serious question: do you believe Obama has an agenda to attack Iran? Is Obama and his administration making the intelligence fit the case to bomb them? If not, why do you suppose Obama seems pretty concerned about a nuclear weapons program? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586/20 "2009-10-05T17:20:18Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Yup it’s a factual question alright. Let’s just not delude ourselves into thinking that the only ones who are making it hard to see the truth of the matter are the Iranians. There are plenty in the US and elsewhere making shit up and pretending it doesn’t stink. There’s no reason to give purveyors of untruth a pass, even if they are ‘the good guys’. > > [Top Things you Think You Know about Iran that are not True](http://www.juancole.com/2009/10/top-things-you-think-you-know-about.html) Juan Cole? The blindly anti-Israel professor who is also an apologist for radical Islam? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-standard-regarding-nukes/512586.md?page=2)