# Doubled book titles -or- when did book titles stop having "or" in them **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [May 7, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126 "2022-05-07T20:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/1 "2022-05-07T20:29:55Z")
19th century books seemed to have double titles frequently, like _Frank’s Campaign; or, What Boys Can Do on the Farm for the Camp_ _Timothy Crump’s Ward; or, The New Years Loan, And What Became of It_ _Moby-Dick; or, The Whale_ Tolkien may have been riffing on that theme with _The Hobbit, or There and Back Again_. Is there any reason for this style (today authors use subtitles fairly frequently)? When/why did it go out of style? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/2 "2022-05-07T21:29:14Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > When/why did it go out of style? (Guess) maybe related to the apperance of printed covers/dustjackets that allow for blurbs? Before that, the title _was_ the blurb. As an aside (with the first reply? yep) Japanese light novels currently have a trend of making the titles ridiculously long: > **[12 Hilariously Long and Weird Japanese Light Novel Titles](https://jeffmakesthings.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/12-hilariously-long-and-weird-japanese-light-novel-titles/)** > > Novel titles are supposed to attract your attention. However things have gotten rather out of control in the Japanese light novel industry. Light novels are Japanese pulp novels, printed in “bunko”… ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/3 "2022-05-07T21:31:29Z")
I don’t have an answer, but FWIW just about all of Gilbert and Sullivan’s comic operas had an “or”: Thespis, or the Gods Grown Old Princess Ida, or Castle Adamant Pinafore, or the Lass That Loved a Sailor etc. I think only The Sorcerer and Trial by Jury lack these alternative titles. ---
**Author:** ![dirtball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dirtball/32/18772_2.png) [@dirtball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dirtball)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/4 "2022-05-07T21:42:26Z")
Depending on the genre, the “or” has been replaced by the “colon-subtitle” combo. If I go to Amazon and search for “self-help books,” my first four hits are as follows: - Get Out of Your Own Way: Overcoming Self-Defeating Behavior - Self-Love Workbook for Women: Release Self-Doubt, Build Self-Compassion, and Embrace Who You Are - Good Vibes, Good Life: How Self-Love Is the Key to Unlocking Your Greatness - You Are a Badass: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/5 "2022-05-07T22:08:27Z")
Just from observation, the practice pretty much ended at the end of the 19th century and lasted only on lesser books. A quick check tells me the only Dickens’ novel to have an “or” was _Oliver Twist, or the Parish Boy’s Progress_, from 1841. None of Trollope’s books did or George Eliot’s, and they both wrote in 1850s. On the American side, Nathanial Hawthorne didn’t use “or” and he started in the 1850s (except for 1828’s _Fanshawe_ and that also lacked an “or”). However, Harriet Beech Stowe used the “or” off and on from _Uncle Tom’s Cabin, or Life Among the Lowly_ (1852) through _We and our Neighbors; or, The Records of an Unfashionable Stree_t (1875). And only two of Louisa May Alcott’s books from 1868 to 1880 had “or”. But dime novels and weeklies continued to use an “or” straight through their end. I can find examples from the 1920s. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/6 "2022-05-07T23:08:38Z")
Not a book, but a 20th century example: _Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/7 "2022-05-07T23:40:13Z")
One need only go back to the '60s to find Principia Discordia: Or, How I Found Goddess And What I Did To Her When I Found Her, the Magnum Opiate of Malaclypse the Younger, Wherein Is Contained Absolutely Everything Worth Knowing About Absolutely Anything. fnord ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/8 "2022-05-07T23:48:38Z")
Please note that the _Reader’s Digest Condensed Books_ version(Spring, 1964) of the above mentioned title is totally worthless, research-wise. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/9 "2022-05-08T00:09:17Z")
> [@dirtball](#): > > Depending on the genre, the “or” has been replaced by the “colon-subtitle” combo. But the colon-subtitle is mostly used for nonfiction, unless you count “: A Novel.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimble/32/19185_2.png) [@Kimble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/10 "2022-05-08T00:15:25Z")
The only two 21st century examples I can think of, neither of which are actually books: _Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance)_, film by Alejandro Iñárritu _Caroline, or Change_, musical by Jeanine Tesori and Tony Kushner I’m pretty sure I read something by Kushner talking about why he phrased the subtitle in that manner, but I can’t find it right now. ---
**Author:** ![dirtball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dirtball/32/18772_2.png) [@dirtball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dirtball)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/11 "2022-05-08T00:20:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@dirtball](#): > > > > Depending on the genre, the “or” has been replaced by the “colon-subtitle” combo. > > But the colon-subtitle is mostly used for nonfiction, unless you count “: A Novel.” True, but I didn’t read the OP as wanting to limit the discussion to novels. It just says “books.” That said, I can think of _Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children’s Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death_, published in 1969. That one gives us an “or” and a colon. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/12 "2022-05-08T00:23:59Z")
Gulliver’s Travels , or Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World. In Four Parts. By Lemuel Gulliver, First a Surgeon, and then a Captain of Several Ships ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/13 "2022-05-08T00:26:12Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > FWIW just about all of Gilbert and Sullivan’s comic operas had an “or” Maybe one title was written by Gilbert and the other was by Sullivan. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/14 "2022-05-08T08:27:59Z")
When it comes to the “titles that summarize the entire plot of the book” genre, I don’t think it’s possible to top Defoe’s _The Fortunes and Misfortunes of Moll Flanders, Who Was Born In Newgate, and During a Life of Continu’d Variety For Threescore Years, Besides Her Childhood, Was Twelve Year a Whore, Five Times a Wife [Whereof Once To Her Own Brother], Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon In Virginia, At Last Grew Rich, Liv’d Honest, and Died a Penitent, Written from her own Memorandums._ ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubled-book-titles-or-when-did-book-titles-stop-having-or-in-them/964126/15 "2022-05-08T14:56:27Z")
> [@Kimble](#): > > The only two 21st century examples I can think of, neither of which are actually books: > > _Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance)_, film by Alejandro Iñárritu > _Caroline, or Change_, musical by Jeanine Tesori and Tony Kushner > > I’m pretty sure I read something by Kushner talking about why he phrased the subtitle in that manner, but I can’t find it right now. _The Goat or Who is Sylvia?_ by Edward Albee from 2002