Doubt: The Film

I think you’ll find that sometimes those who are the most strident about religious rules and regulations/Do’s and Don’ts are the ones who latch onto the legalistic aspect of the faith because the spiritual side is so empty. There’s no doubt she cares about the children, but all her experience within the church has done is feed her suspicion and cynicism about human nature in general. She is quick to think the worst of Father Flynn and cast broad brushstroke judgments of others on superficial matters. Perhaps her “doubt” has to do with her belief in a God that could allow so much suffering and evil (as she sees it). Perhaps it is an admission that her Certainty is a mask for a fragility in belief that these events have brought back up to the surface. I don’t think she has any reservations about the moral righteousness of her position, but that righteousness seems, by the end, to be rooted in the Letter of the Law and not in something more profoundly personal and sacred.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that there’s some kind of skeleton in Father Flynn’s past, but I think the film still makes it quite ambiguous as to whether anything happened at that particular church–or even, in fact, at the previous one (for all we know, there was also an Aloysius at his last appointment, and he will always be doomed to run from something he did long ago, even if he is in control of his impulses, now).

Actually, I was thinking that her doubt arose from

… a doubt in her Church, which did nothing to investigate the priest and, in fact, gave him a promotion. This could then blossom into doubt about herself and her ability to affect moral change over a world that is changing none to her liking. Since the Church she clinged to (and tried to uphold) has disappointed her so badly in this situation, this form of doubt would leave her crying on a park bench. She likely wouldn’t have had near as bad a reaction had she merely been proved wrong after a proper investigation, for she would still believe she was in the right to make the accusation - to protect the children.

But it’s open to interpretation, and, handled correctly, that’s a good thing. No doubt about it. :wink:

Also, anybody else affected when the boy’s mother essentially said “I don’t care if this priest is buggering my boy if it gets him out of this environment - it’s only to June, anyway.”

Just saw this yesterday, and had a question.
The principal tells the priest that she called a nun at his previous parish, and found out he was at 3 parishes over 5 years.
She later tells the young nun that she lied, and did not call anyone.
If not, where did she learn about the 3 parishes in 5 years?
The priest did not react in any way to suggest that was inaccurate.

All I got for sure was that Flynn was hiding something. Whether he felt guilty about it or not was not clear, but since he was hiding it it must have been something others would at least think was wrong.

That doesn’t mean it was sex with, or molestation of, children.

He’s afraid of something that happened in his past, but I didn’t think the movie made it at all clear what that thing was.

-frL-

I guess my interpretation may have been clouded for my dislike for Meryl Streep (the actress and her character), but I thought it at least possible that he agreed to request a transfer simply to avoid the unpleasantness that would result should she make her accusations public. Just decided not to fight this particular battle against this particular opponent.

Hard to imagine how this would have played out in the early 60s, but accusations of sexual misconduct can be awfully damaging, whether or not they are ever proven to have been true.

My wife OTOH thought his agreement to request a transfer was an admission of guilt.

Loved this movie. Meryl Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman, and Amy Adams all did absolutely outstanding jobs, and the interrogation between the three of them in the principal’s office was one of my favorite scenes in any film this year. As noted, the actress who played Donald Miller’s mother was also wonderful.

As for Father Flynn’s guilt or innocence, it was certainly left somewhat ambiguous. My impression by the end of the movie was that

Father Flynn had had inappropriate dealings with students in at least one of his previous parishes, but that nothing of a sexual nature had actually happened between he and Donald Miller (despite, or perhaps because of, Donald’s obvious crush on him). There are other plausible interpretations, but that’s the one that I think best fits with both Father Flynn’s words/actions throughout the movie and his plea to Sister Aloysius in their final scene together.

Edit: I also agree with Dinsdale that the Sister’s certainty would have ruined Father Flynn’s life in that parish whether or not he was actually guilty of anything.

She already knew he had been at other parishes. This wouldn’t have been a secret necessarily. She simply lied about calling one of these parishes, but she didn’t say she learned of all the others through the call. It was likely she already knew about them (though not, obviously, any of the details of his departure).

Funniest line:
Streep, I put the sugar away for Lent and never brought it back out.
Hoffman, must not have been much to give up.

I was rolling for that one.

The movie just came out on DVD, so rather than start a new thread (and a third one on this movie), I decided to bump this one. If that’s not OK, I guess a mod will close it and I’ll open another one.

I just watched this movie last night, and I have a few questions/theories. I’m not going to spoil them or anything.

I’m confused about the incident with Donald and the altar wine. Sr. Aloysius is contending that Fr. Flynn called Donald out of class, gave him altar wine, then sent him back to class. Afterwards, the boy was dejected and sad. That just doesn’t make sense. Fr. Flynn’s story doesn’t really make sense either, though: he’s alleging that the boy drank the wine earlier in the day, was caught, and that he called him down to his office during class and confronted him. That would account for the child’s sadness upon returning to class, but the timeline is still wonky to me, what with his breath still smelling like alcohol at that point. Why would Donald drink altar wine in the first place? He didn’t seem the type.

I was also wondering about the reactions of two of the more minor characters and how they shed light onto the situation. William London, the deliquent boy, was shown often behaving badly. It was the scene of his arm being grabbed by Fr. Flynn that triggered Sr. A’s doubts about Fr. F. Was William the actual target of Fr. F’s advances, and that’s why he was acting out? They noted that he, like Fr. F, smoked, and he smiled when he heard Fr. F was leaving.

Then there’s James Hurley, the other altar boy with Donald Miller. When Sr. James is grilling Donald about Patrick Henry’s quote, and Donald doesn’t know, James Hurley stands up and tells the quote, seemingly in defense of Donald. He gets in trouble, sees Mrs. Miller in Sr. A’s office, is very sassy to Sr. James when he returns to class, then apologizes and cries. What was that all about? Was he privy to Donald’s molestation and feeling protective of Donald? We seem him interacting with Donald and Fr. F before and after mass, with some meaningful looks that I couldn’t quite figure out. Anyone have any insight?

Ultimately, I think Sr. A was right about Fr. F, though I’m not sure if her certainty was based on the correct evidence. It’s ironic that she’d focus on Donald Miller, whose relationship with Fr. Flynn was likely mutual, and totally ignore William London, who seemed much more ill affected by his encounter with the priest. And sadly, all Sr. A’s actions did was give Fr. F a better position with which to mess with other kids. Perhaps that’s why she wept at the end: she doubts the goodness of a church that can promote and cover up such evil.

Is the play significantly different from the movie? Would reading the play cast any light onto things?

Another bump rather than starting another thread they may not have any takers.

I just saw this on DVD and really enjoyed it. It reminded me a bit of the movie/play HISTORY BOYS. I’m surprised that the producers didn’t have a smoking gun on one side or the other though: either Streep’s a judgmental and totally off-base harpie or Hoffmann really is molesting the kid, but in a way I ultimately like the “make your own conclusion” better.

Questions though (opinion, not factual):

Why do you think it was set in 1964? It could have worked as well modern day (when her concern would be more understandable) or in 1924 for that matter.

Do you think he was doing anything improper?

The weirdest question: if he was doing something improper, do you think it was in the best interest of the boy to send him away when the priest was about the only thing good in his life?

I think it had to be set in 1964, how many strict boys-only catholic schools are left? I know of one boys-only school in my area, but aside from the lack of girls, it’s a typical high school. And it routinely sets up gatherings/projects/what-have-you with the local girls-only school.

As for Father Flynn’s guilt, I don’t think he did it. I think the movie’s other explanation for his behavior, that he’s gay, is much more likely. There’s equal evidence for both explanations, but I think Sister Aloysius’ crazed rantings before she had any proof makes all of her proof seem less real.

There was a boys-only school in Doubt? I don’t remember that.

Maybe I’m misremembering, I saw it a few months ago.

Note that the school was just starting to integrate. The black kid and his mother played a key part in the plot. Wouldn’t have worked like that if set earlier or later.

It was co-ed.

As mentioned several times in the thread, I thought that Mrs. Miller was the most intriguing, well written, and well acted* and shocking part of the film. She seems to have accepted as fact that her son is gay, and the character’s “If he is then I’m okay with it as long as he gets him through this part of his life” take on the situation was at once shocking and oddly completely understandable. You know that this is a woman who has been through Hell sideways, is still there, and has developed an extremely pragmatic view for her son: better he be fxcked now than fxcked for the rest of his life, both literally and figuratively. In a better world you’d scream “get that boy out of that house now!”, but a black kid- possibly gay- in the Bronx in 1964- the chances of his lot improving in already overburdened and always difficult to find placement for older and minority kids foster care aren’t considerable, plus his mother clearly- however misguided she may or may not be- has his best interest in mind. Just a fascinating “no easy answers” scenario all the way around.

I never really got that Father Flynn was gay. Or that he was straight. Or that he was anything other than a popular half-worldly/half-otherworldly priest.

The movie also reminded me of the movie/play Mass Appeal. That would be an interesting play to revisit ala Wall Streetwith the child molestation scandals in mind. (Jack Lemmon’s dead but the character wouldn’t have to be, and I’m convinced you of course Zeljko Ivanek is one of those actors who might turn up in a major role in a $500 million blockbuster or as the Japanese sailor on an episode of The New Gilligan’s Island.)

*Viola Davis was nominated for an Academy Award for the role. I hadn’t seen the movie at the time or I’d have been disappointed she didn’t win, though in fairness I haven’t seen Vicky Cristina Barcelona, the movie for which Penelope Cruz won instead of Davis.

I took from the ending that the reason Sister Aloysius was so riled by Father Flynn was that his non-pious nature and questioning sermons bought her own crisis of faith to the surface (back to the surface?). She resented him for that, hence her merciless pursuit of him.

Oh, and ITA about the actor playing the boy’s mother. That was one powerful scene.

Penlope Cruz was really good in that movie. Really, she was the only good thing about it. Viola Davis had a good scene, but it was only one scene, plus, I think a lot of the impact in that scene came from the writing, from the inherent shock of what the character was saying and (an example of how great she really is) from Meryl Streep’s reactions to her, which were underplayed to perfection.

What I think makes her reasoning more believable was that she was tough enough to confront the problem. She didn’t deny what was going on and had the courage to deal with because she has faced this challenge before. Which means that she can recognize potential child molesters better than most people.

Even in a male dominated society she was able to stand up to a popular priest. This was because she was certain that the priest was doing something wrong and her religious convictions told her that getting rid of him was the moral thing to do. Even if that meant risking her job.

Even if the Priest was only gay, and wasn’t molesting the boy, it still would have been safer for Sister Aloysius to remove the Priest rather than risk being wrong. She had a suspicion; she investigated it by bluffing the Priest and found out that she was correct. What threw a wrench into the whole situation was the child’s mother telling her that it would be better if the child stayed with the priest. That is why she started to doubt herself. If the child wasn’t black then getting rid of the Priest would have been the right move.

I came away with the impression Father Flynn did nothing wrong but the reason he keeps going from church to church is that he is gay, he had issues with it in the past and didn’t want to call Sister Beauvier’s bluff because he knew the powers that be would believe her unsubstantiated claims.

In a movie filled with quality actors in top notch performances I thought Viola Davis’s was the stand out.