# Doubting Thomas? Where and what?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976 "2003-05-08T21:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DTFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@DTFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DTFan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/1 "2003-05-08T21:38:38Z")
I’ve always wondered where this term came from. I’m pretty sure (but could be completely wrong … it’s happened many times before) that it means somebody who is always doubtful until proof is given. But where did it originate and what exactly does it mean? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/2 "2003-05-08T21:44:52Z")
The Bible. The Apostle Thomas wouldn’t believe it was truly Christ returned until he felt his wounds. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/3 "2003-05-08T21:46:08Z")
Thomas is the apostle Thomas, who doubted news of Jesus’ resurrection without direct evidence. From [John 20](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+20&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on).24-29 (KJV): > [@](#): > > 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. > > 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. > > 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. > > 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. > > 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. > > 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. ---
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/4 "2003-05-08T21:50:13Z")
[hijack]Is this the same Thomas who wrote the Gospel of Thomas? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/5 "2003-05-08T21:50:39Z")
Thomas was the disciple that doubted Jesus had risen from the dead, saying “unless I see it for myself, and touch the wounds, I aint gonna believe it” (quoted from the New Testament - Mangetout’s Flaky Memory Version) ---
**Author:** ![gypsymoth3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@gypsymoth3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gypsymoth3)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/6 "2003-05-08T22:47:40Z")
wow! practically living in church and going to a christian school, i’ve never met (in real life or on the internet) anyone who didn’t know about that. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/7 "2003-05-08T23:13:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Engywook \* > \*\*[hijack]Is this the same Thomas who wrote the Gospel of Thomas? > [/hijack] \*\* Some scholars think so: > [@](#): > > The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of traditional Sayings (logoi) of Jesus. It is attributed to Didymos Judas Thomas, the “Doubting Thomas” of the canonical Gospels, and according to many early traditions, the twin brother of Jesus (“didymos” means “twin” in Greek). Craig Schenk, Commentary, [The Gospel of Thomas](http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel-thomas-Paul_Halsall.htm). But nobody knows for sure: > [@](#): > > [**Who wrote the Gospel of Thomas?**](http://home.epix.net/~miser17/faq.html) > > No one knows. The four canonical gospels and Thomas and other gospels such as the Gospel of Philip (found at Nag Hammadi) were given their names some time in the second century. Scholars of the New Testament generally agree that none of the gospels were written by people who had ever met Jesus of Nazareth during his lifetime. But at a later date names were assigned to them that were associated with famous individuals in the earliest church. The name of the person who supposedly wrote the Gospel of Thomas is given in the first lines of the text as “didymos Judas thomas.” The word “didymos” is Greek for twin and the word “thomas” is Aramaic for twin. The individual’s name was Judas, and his nickname “the twin” is given in two languages. The canonical gospels mention a man named Thomas and John calls him didymos thomas. There are also several individuals named Judas mentioned in the canonical gospels in addition to Judas called Iscariot. The bottom line is that we do not know who wrote the Gospel of Thomas and we cannot be sure which Judas mentioned in the New Testament also was nicknamed Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/8 "2003-05-09T00:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > This guy Thomas, you can’t tell him nothin’. Every time I see him, he asks for my I.D. “Got any I.D.?” he’d ask. -George Carlin, as Jesus ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/9 "2003-05-09T03:30:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally said by George Carlin, as Jesus, and posted by **Bryan Ekers** _ > This guy Thomas, you can’t tell him nothin’. Every time I see him, he asks for my I.D. “Got any I.D.?” he’d ask. Not far removed from **“Cite!?”**. 🙂 Hey, maybe we should adopt Thomas as patron saint of the SDMB? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DTFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@DTFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DTFan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/10 "2003-05-09T03:40:28Z")
Thank you everyone. So I guess I was wrong in what I thought it meant 😉 Seriously, thank you all for your answers. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/11 "2003-05-09T05:40:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Scholars of the New Testament generally agree that none of the gospels were written by people who had ever met Jesus of Nazareth during his lifetime. That’s not true at all. There are lots of NT scholars who believe exactly the opposite, that Matthew and John were written by those guys, the members of the original 12. This is a double major with Bible talking. You don’t have to agree, but there are lots of experts who believe that it’s true. That’s my point. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/12 "2003-05-09T11:53:57Z")
Lots of scholars believe that the gospels were in written form by the end of the first century. John is said to have been the last gospel, appearing in the 90s AD. The other three are dated to the 60s and 70s AD. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/13 "2003-05-09T12:36:34Z")
[http://cartoons.sev.com.au/archivepage.php?cartoonid=r10](http://cartoons.sev.com.au/archivepage.php?cartoonid=r10) ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/14 "2003-05-09T14:13:46Z")
There is a strong tradition in the Indian state of Kerala that it was St. Thomas who founded the Christian church there. From this page, [http://www.travel-wise.com/europe/india/stthomas.html](http://www.travel-wise.com/europe/india/stthomas.html) > [@](#): > > Documentary evidence indicates that active trading between the Middle East and the Malabar coast of India was in existence as far back as the first century, B.C. It is therefore theoretically possible that St. Thomas could have crossed the Arabian Sea aboard an Arab dhow. Although no verifiable records attest to his arrival on the shores of India, today’s Malabar Christians of Kerala staunchly insist that their community was founded by the St. Thomas the Apostle in 56 AD. ---
**Author:** ![Hern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hern)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/15 "2003-05-09T15:49:09Z")
I was taught that Mark was the first Gospel to be written - certainly the first of the Synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke). Both Luke and Matthew appear to borrow heavily from Mark as well as a second common source (Q) and their own sources. Anyhow, Mark is believed to have written some time after 60AD. His gospel contains an incident which obviously the other writers didn’t deem fit to include ([cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+14&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)). The following takes place during the arrest of Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane: > [@](#): > > 51A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52he fled naked, leaving his garment behind. The fact that Mark mentioned this whilst others omitted it is seen by some Biblical critics to suggest that this young man was Mark himself. This is the author’s way of saying “I was there!” So, perhaps one evangelist, at least, actually had met Jesus. The disciples themselves are unlikely to have written any gospels though. Only once a following had grown was there any need to commit these things to paper. Whilst the teachings and story of Jesus were known to few, word of mouth would have sufficed. Only once centralisation was lost would the gospels need to come into existence. Stu ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/16 "2003-05-09T16:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > **That’s not true at all. There are lots of NT scholars who believe exactly the opposite, that Matthew and John were written by those guys, the members of the original 12.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diceman \* > \*\*Lots of scholars believe that the gospels were in written form by the end of the first century. John is said to have been the last gospel, appearing in the 90s AD. The other three are dated to the 60s and 70s AD. \*\* Points well taken. I quoted that excerpt for the proposition that Thomas’s gospel’s authorship is uncertain. I didn’t pay much attention to the fact that the excerpt also contains the less reliable (and off-point) statement about the canonical gospels’ authorship. It is true that _some_ scholars have concluded that “none of the [canonical] gospels were written by people who had ever met Jesus of Nazareth during his lifetime,” but the excerpt does go too far in saying that “scholars of the New Testament generally agree” on that point. ---
**Author:** ![Shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/17 "2003-05-09T17:05:49Z")
Poor Thomas. He always gets a bad rap for not believing. If you look closely at the story as presented, Thomas does not doubt that Jesus could be resurrected, he doubts his fellow disciples account that he appeared to them. You see, the other disciples had locked themselves in a room for safety, fearing reprisal after Jesus’ death. Thomas on the other hand was out and about, among the people, not cowering in a room. He wasn’t there when Jesus returned to the other disciples. He mearly says he needs more than their word. When Jesus does appear in Thomas’ presence and tells him he may probe his hands and side, Thomas immediately believes that it is Jesus without carrying out the physical examination. He doubts his fellow man, not his Lord. Wow, I guess I was paying attention during Mass at least once. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/doubting-thomas-where-and-what/173976/18 "2003-05-09T22:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > \*\*That’s not true at all. There are lots of NT scholars who believe exactly the opposite, that Matthew and John were written by those guys, the members of the original 12. > > This is a double major with Bible talking. You don’t have to agree, but there are lots of experts who believe that it’s true. That’s my point. \*\* The majority opinion (a vast majority) of scholars of mainline churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, etc…) who accept the methodology of modern scientific historical analysis (peer-reviewed publishing in journals; consideration of archeological and philological findings; carbon-12 dating; form and documentary criticism, etc…) agree that Matthew and John were **not** written by the same named Apostles. Yes, those gospels are attributed to those Apostles, and indeed, may contain the direct teachings of those Apostles, but were definitely written by later disciples. A few mainline scholars and most, if not all, fundamentalist scholars dissent. And, just for everyone’s edification, the mainline consensus is that the Gospel of Thomas is an even later and very suspect account of Jesus’ teachings. Peace.