# Dougie\_monty is an immoral cultist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993 "2014-08-20T13:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/301 "2014-08-26T02:02:07Z")
“Look! God’s slave-girl.” ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/302 "2014-08-26T02:03:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > When God confounded language at the Tower of Babel, he screwed up big time. He made it impossible for His Word to be accurately translated. I didn’t know you were so exceedingly old that you were at the Tower of Babel. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/303 "2014-08-26T02:09:29Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I didn’t know you were so exceedingly old that you were at the Tower of Babel. 😛 Who do you think it was who gave God the idea of creating light first? After all, it’s hard to create if you can’t see what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/304 "2014-08-26T02:31:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Really? In the KJV, Westcott and Hort’s text, and Strong ’ s Concordance the phrase is “beginning” (Greek, _arche)_ of the creation of God. " [QUOTE=[archaeo-, archeo-, archae-, arche-, archa-, archi-, -arch - Word Information](http://wordinfo.info/unit/179/ip:12)] (Greek: original [first in time], beginning, first cause, origin, ancient, primitive, from the beginning; most basic) [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=[Arche Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arche)] Full Definition of ARCHE : something that was in the beginning : a first principle: a in early Greek philosophy : a substance or primal element [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=[Revelation 3:14](http://onlytruegod.org/defense/revelation3.14.htm)] One well known scholar stated: "The New World Translation…is also in error at Rev.3:14, where it makes the exalted Christ refer to himself as “the beginning of the creation by God.” The Greek text of this verse[en arche tes kitsews tou theou], is far from saying that Christ was created by God, for the genitive case[tou theou], means “of God” and not “by God”(which would require the preposition [hupo]. Actually the word [arche]translated “beginning,” carries with it the Pauline idea expressed in Col.1:15-18, and signifies that Christ is the origin, or primary source, of God’s creation(compare also John 1:3, “Apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”) [/QUOTE] > **[What Does the Bible Say About...?](https://books.google.com/books?id=06oL-QSETuAC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=rev%2B3:14%2Barche&source=bl&ots=lycIe5meQu&sig=yecODcyPPHTQA9teJju3FxUAfR0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j_D7U474G8K4ogS8-4GoDQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rev%203%3A14%20arche&f=false)** > > Popular author and Bible teacher Ron Rhodes offers straightforward, easy-to-understand responses to frequently asked questions about God, faith, and living for Christ. He addresses more than 300 issues as diverse as... Do guardian angels exist? What... ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/305 "2014-08-26T03:56:29Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Handel is Messiah? Well, stop handling the Messiah then. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/306 "2014-08-26T05:21:19Z")
> [@simster](#): > > [What Does the Bible Say About...?: Easy-To-Understand Answers to the Tough ... - Dr Ron Rhodes - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=06oL-QSETuAC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=rev+3:14+arche&source=bl&ots=lycIe5meQu&sig=yecODcyPPHTQA9teJju3FxUAfR0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j_D7U474G8K4ogS8-4GoDQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rev%203%3A14%20arche&f=false) When this “scholar” produces his/her own translation, maybe I’ll pay heed. Not before. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/307 "2014-08-26T11:45:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > When this “scholar” produces his/her own translation, maybe I’ll pay heed. Not before. This is multiple different quotes - primarily to show that you’ve got the sense of the word incorrect. Do you want to talk about the history of the Watchtower’s ‘translation’ ? How many on the translation committee actually had any capability to do the work? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/308 "2014-08-26T11:50:01Z")
Anyone can produce a translation and interpretation of Scripture. However, the value and accuracy of these works is entirely dependent upon whether or not they align with dougie’s previously instilled biases. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/309 "2014-08-26T11:51:28Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Anyone can produce a translation and interpretation of Scripture. > > However, the value and accuracy of these works is entirely dependent upon whether or not they align with dougie’s previously instilled biases. Which, and this is a cogent point - was exactly the design of the NWT when it was “translated”. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/310 "2014-08-26T12:14:24Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Which, and this is a cogent point - was exactly the design of the NWT when it was “translated”. Is this a question or bait? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/311 "2014-08-26T12:18:44Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Is this a question or bait? I don’t see a question mark - its a simple statement of fact - backed up by numerous other resources. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/312 "2014-08-26T12:34:15Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Which, and this is a cogent point - was exactly the design of the NWT when it was “translated”. Obviously, if existing translations do not clearly support the interpretation you want, then you commission your own, more “accurate” translation which (miraculum deo!) supports your cult’s beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/313 "2014-08-26T12:40:28Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I don’t see a question mark - its a simple statement of fact - backed up by numerous other resources. Let me put it this way: given the context, and logic (and I have Strong ’ s Concordance and an interlinear Greek translation), I think “creation by God” is a better rendering into English. “Creation of God” is ambiguous, suggesting “creating God,” but, of course, God is uncreated. You may quote me to your scholar(s); I see no reason to abandon my point. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/314 "2014-08-26T12:48:54Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: given the context, and logic (and I have Strong ’ s Concordance and an interlinear Greek translation), I think “creation by God” is a better rendering into English. “Creation of God” is ambiguous, suggesting “creating God,” but, of course, God is uncreated. You may quote me to your scholar(s); I see no reason to abandon my point. And what is you’re scholarly background here? If the natural translation suggests “creating God” - who are you to question the author’s work/choice of words just because you ‘disagree’ with them? In other words - you’re letting your bias show thru. Did you pass a test in some course? Did you read the links beyond the one quoted? the final link is a full article on it, and how the NWT is inconsistent in its translation of the given word. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/315 "2014-08-26T12:50:03Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: given the context, and logic (and I have Strong ’ s Concordance and an interlinear Greek translation), I think “creation by God” is a better rendering into English. “Creation of God” is ambiguous, suggesting “creating God,” but, of course, God is uncreated. You may quote me to your scholar(s); I see no reason to abandon my point. Pharisaic hair splitting and legalistic obfuscation designed to prevent reasonable persons from discerning the clear intent in a plain reading. (Of course, the “plain reading” needs to be in Greek, but it is not the Lord’s fault that anyone decided to not learn to read Greek.) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/316 "2014-08-26T13:02:47Z")
> [@simster](#): > > And what is you’re scholarly background here? If the natural translation suggests “creating God” - who are you to question the author’s work/choice of words just because you ‘disagree’ with them? > > In other words - you’re letting your bias show thru. > > Did you pass a test in some course? > > Did you read the links beyond the one quoted? the final link is a full article on it, and how the NWT is inconsistent in its translation of the given word. It seems to me that you have an ax to grind. Don’t drag me into it. This has been asked and answered, as far as I am concerned. This \* is \* bait. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/317 "2014-08-26T13:11:18Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > It seems to me that you have an ax to grind. Don’t drag me into it. This has been asked and answered, as far as I am concerned. This \* is \* bait. ooohhh - touched a nerve? you haven’t answered anything beyond “what you think” - which has been shown to, well, not count for much. If you don’t have any qualifications, your translation skills mean _nothing_ and you should just admit that you are parroting the WTs translation. “axe to grind” ? Read the masthead - “fighting ignorance” - which, with you - is a full time job. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/318 "2014-08-26T13:24:53Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > It seems to me that you have an ax to grind. Don’t drag me into it. This has been asked and answered, as far as I am concerned. This \* is \* bait. I also find it fucking hilarious that you ask me not to drag you into a conversation you started - ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/319 "2014-08-26T13:42:23Z")
Well, it should be obvious to you that I’m stopping it now. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993/320 "2014-08-26T13:46:28Z")
> [@simster](#): > > ooohhh - touched a nerve? you haven’t answered anything beyond “what you think” - which has been shown to, well, not count for much. > > If you don’t have any qualifications, your translation skills mean _nothing_ and you should just admit that you are parroting the WTs translation. > > “axe to grind” ? Read the masthead - “fighting ignorance” - which, with you - is a full time job. I should have replied to this post first. Excuse me. Ignorance, eh? I guess I am to assume that on this topic you have, or cite, specific knowledge I don’t have. What good does it do me? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dougie_monty-is-an-immoral-cultist/695993.md?page=17)