# Dowager's Hump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520 "2023-05-24T15:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/1 "2023-05-24T15:25:38Z")
I came across the phrase “Dowager’s Hump”, which I take to mean a hunchbacked posture. Strangely, there are a reasonably sized number of videos on the internet with advice on how to correct the issue but nothing explaining the origin of the phrase. Based on my knowledge of history, my expectation would be that it comes from women who were living on their own and owned property, but needed to earn an income in some way. They probably turned to clothes washing and/or clothes mending/tailoring/etc. which lead to working, hunched over something, and caused them to develop a “Dowager’s Hump”. Can anyone confirm that? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/2 "2023-05-24T15:49:23Z")
You’re overthinking it. A dowager was a widow, hence an older woman. The hump is a sign of osteoporosis, which you’ll still see afflicts some elderly women. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/3 "2023-05-24T17:59:19Z")
Also afflicts some elderly men, although not as many. Yes, the term “dowager’s hump” refers to the hunchback posture of some types of osteoporosis. It happens when the vertebrae become so weak they start collapsing. In the old days people just put up with the pain and deformity (in advanced cases it could even cause breathing and heart problems) because there wasn’t an alternative. Nowadays there are some types of surgery that might help, and various other therapies. Not perfect, but better than in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/4 "2023-05-24T18:01:17Z")
Cites? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/5 "2023-05-24T18:04:00Z")
For once, I am my, well, their cite. My back vertebrae are mostly fused from anklyosing spodilitus, however one spells it. I lost about six inches in height. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/6 "2023-05-24T18:15:14Z")
This news source would seem to imply that it might have originated as a slam against corsets and high heeled shoes: > **[Great Falls daily tribune. \[volume\] (Great Falls, Mont.) 1895-1921, October...](https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84024808/1919-10-12/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1770&index=2&rows=20&words=dowagers+hump&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1920&proxtext=%22dowager%27s+hump%22&y=5&x=19&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1)** > > Great Falls daily tribune. \[volume\] (Great Falls, Mont.) 1895-1921, October 12, 1919, Page 2, Image 2, brought to you by Montana Historical Society; Helena, MT, and the National Digital Newspaper Program. These beauty-making implements made it hard to stand straight, inducing a slouch. Eventually, this became a hump that was more common among former beauties who outlived their elderly husbands. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/7 "2023-05-24T18:21:42Z")
More discussion on the “debutante slump”: > **[The daily Alaskan. \[volume\] (Skagway, Alaska) 1904-1924, May 20, 1919, Image 3](https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82014189/1919-05-20/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1770&index=9&rows=20&words=Debutante+Slump&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=%22debutante%27s+slump%22&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1)** > > The daily Alaskan. \[volume\] (Skagway, Alaska) 1904-1924, May 20, 1919, Image 3, brought to you by Alaska State Library Historical Collections, and the National Digital Newspaper Program. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/8 "2023-05-24T18:26:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Cites? [How about the Clevand Clinic?](https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-you-can-fix-a-dowagers-hump-prevention-tips/) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/9 "2023-05-24T18:34:23Z")
I believe that you have misunderstood the question being asked, unless there’s an etymological portion in your link that I don’t see. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/10 "2023-05-24T18:45:25Z")
You asked for a cite right after my post? Perhaps I did misunderstand? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/11 "2023-05-24T18:46:21Z")
The Merriam-Webster online dictionary indicates that [the first use of the term only dates back to 1927](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dowager%27s%20hump#word-history). So, it’s a relatively recent term. I can’t easily find any additional details on the term’s etymology, but historically, the term “[dowager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowager)” referred to, not just an older woman, but an older woman who held a title and/or property – in other words, she probably _wouldn’t_ have had to work once she became widowed. However, it also looks like the term has broadened somewhat in its use, to refer to elderly women, generally (though typically ones of a dignified manner). Barring any information to the contrary, I’d suspect that the term came about simply as a reference to older women, as they are more likely to suffer from osteoporosis, leading to that back curvature. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/12 "2023-05-24T18:48:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You asked for a cite right after my post? Perhaps I did misunderstand? In re-reading the OP, I think that @Sage_Rat is _specifically_ looking to understand the etymology of the **term** , not the condition itself, and whether it was related to their hypothesis about older women having to work to support themselves, and thus, developing the condition. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/13 "2023-05-24T19:40:51Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > not the condition itself The alternative would be that I was complaining that people are - in modern times - incessantly making and publishing videos about how to correct an issue that I believed was caused by 1850s style dowagers being forced to enter the workforce in the only occupations available to them at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/14 "2023-05-24T20:00:20Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > The Merriam-Webster online dictionary indicates that [the first use of the term only dates back to 1927](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dowager%27s%20hump#word-history). So, it’s a relatively recent term. For the record, my cite goes back to 1919. Messrs Merriam and Webster might need to hit the research pile again. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/15 "2023-05-24T20:04:10Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > For the record, my cite goes back to 1919. Nothing in that article specifically refers to “dowager’s hump,” or uses that term, however. It refers to “debutante slouch,” which was apparently a completely different thing: > [@](#): > > "…Defiant slumping dates back at least to 1913 with the “debutante slouch,” a self-conscious craze (documented around the time by the [Library of Congress](https://www.loc.gov/item/lmc1995000221/PP/) and [The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1914/05/07/archives/standtall-girls-drill-exercises-to-correct-debutante-slouch.html)) used to describe women of all classes who walked with their “[shoulders](https://www.salon.com/2014/04/13/dont_slouch_young_lady/) sloping, chest dropped, hips slung forward and the knees… slightly bent.” The article does mention “old woman’s hump” in the third paragraph, but again, doesn’t use the word “dowager,” and in fact, it’s opining that women being active and working is _reducing_ that hump, not causing it. > **[Posture and Slouching](https://www.walkinbalance.net/blog/slouching-as-an-art-form-of-resistance)** > > Slouching as an art form of resistance ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/16 "2023-05-24T20:13:50Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Nothing in that article specifically refers to “dowager’s hump,” or uses that term It highlights the term for me. [Zoomed](https://i.ibb.co/Mc98yNh/dowager.png) You’re looking at the second article, where I looked up more information on “debutante slump”. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/17 "2023-05-24T20:13:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The alternative would be that I was complaining that people are - in modern times - incessantly making and publishing videos about how to correct an issue that I believed was caused by 1850s style dowagers being forced to enter the workforce in the only occupations available to them at the time. People use the term “dowager’s hump” instead of “age-related postural hyperkyphosis”. Another possibility for the origin of the term may be that in the 19th century (assuming the term is actually that old) higher income elderly women (i.e., dowagers if they are widowed) had a higher chance to survive to the age where their osteoporosis progressed to that degree. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/18 "2023-05-24T20:17:06Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It highlights the term for me. > > [Zoomed](https://i.ibb.co/Mc98yNh/dowager.png) Ahhh, I’d missed that you linked to two different articles, and had only looked at the second one. My apologies. So, the term’s at least a decade older than Merriam-Webster cites. Regardless, I’m not seeing anything that confirms your hypothesis in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/19 "2023-05-24T21:06:15Z")
Since we’re in citation battle I can offer a solid one from June 1926, so suck on that Merriam-Webster. > ‘Maturity brings with it that fullness at the back of the neck which is known as the dowager’s hump’ [[Brisbane Daily Mail 11 June 1926: 11](http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article219045293)]. I suspect its origin is less from this (frankly unlikely) class of newly working old ladies fallen on hard times, than on the caricatured way old women of a particular class were portrayed in the popular theatre and graphic art. It falls in a rich but sadly dying tradition in English and English of adjectivalising body parts and medical conditions - ‘shagger’s back’, ‘tennis elbow’, wanker’s cramp’ etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520/20 "2023-05-24T21:33:58Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’m not seeing anything that confirms your hypothesis in your OP. Yeah, I seem to have been wrong. It’s not perfect evidence but the dual use with debutante’s slump seems to indicate that people might have thought there was a connection. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowagers-hump/984520.md?page=2)