# Down Syndrom kids. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 20, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297 "2015-10-20T23:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/61 "2015-10-22T17:24:27Z")
One option I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread is placing the baby for adoption. Yes, there are organizations that arrange such adoptions, in which the parents know they are adopting a child with this condition. Not saying this is what the mother should do, just saying that she might choose to consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/62 "2015-10-22T18:31:17Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Does everyone realize that not all Down Syndrome problems can be overcome? The disease is a premature death sentence, even if the kid can find a way to get by despite the mental retardation. I’ve read most Down Syndrome patients die in their 40s from this nasty form of leukemia. Um… actually heart disease is another pretty common end for them. On the other hand, my physical and mentally normal nephew just up and died recently for no damn reason anyone could find, and he was only 24. So a Downs affected person living into their 40’s would have had nearly twice the lifespan of that particular “normal” person. All life is a death sentence. I’m not sure “likely to die in mid-40’s” is a sufficient reason to eliminate a person. Also, your information may be outdated as a quick google indicates that current life expectancy for people with DS is 50-60. A quick google also indicates that while leukemia and testicular cancers are more likely in people with DS solid tumors are less likely, so it seems a toss-up. But not _all_ people with DS get cancer of any sort, their overall risk is about the same as anyone else’s, it’s just that when they do get cancer it’s more likely to affect the blood than solid tissues. Mind you, I fully support the right of parents to make decisions surrounding reproduction. As for abortions - I’ve known women who were severely traumatized by their decision to abort, and women who found terminating an unwanted pregnancy as definite relief and never regretted it. Maybe we should just accept that different women are different and will view that same sort of procedure differently. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/63 "2015-10-22T18:55:51Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Wow, what a coincidence. My daughter and son-in-law just found out today that their unborn child probably has Down Syndrome and a rather serious heart defect. She’s in her 7th month; baby is due the first week in December. > > The diagnosis was based on ultrasound, not amniocentesis. They found a too-flat face, and too-short limbs, and the heart defect. The weird thing is that after last week’s ultrasound the doctors said everything looked fine, and now this. > > I was going to start a thread asking about this topic, and saw this one already here. > > I let her cry on my shoulder for a while and reassured her that we would love her and the new baby regardless of anything, and would be here to give any support that we can, including the care of her other two children (a 5 yo and a 1 yo). > > Someone told her that it’s possible the child might not even survive delivery because of the heart defect – a hole between the two atria of the heart. > > If anyone has information about any of these things, I’d be glad to have it. Depends on the size of the hole. It’s very possible that a small hold can grow shut within a year and be of no concern. > [@monstro](#): > > I find it very disturbing that a person could love a fetus the same way they love a conscious, conversant, personality-having, huggable person. It confirms to me that love is completely irrational and has no place in an argument like this one. Disturbing? At what point would that love not disturb you? Because a newborn out of the womb is hardly more conversant or personality-having than when developing in the womb. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/64 "2015-10-22T19:14:18Z")
I appear to be one of the few people here who actually has a child with mental disabilities. My child does not have Downs, but she is severely disabled and requires specialized care. I love her so much and I can’t imagine my life without her in it. I am also extremely thankful because I know that as bad off as she is, there are others out there who have it so much worse. I can understand the parent’s doubts and their conflicted feelings. What I can’t understand are the people who categorically dismiss my child as a drain on taxpayers, as though she is nothing more than a parasitic tumor with legs. She is a complete human being in every way. She has her own hopes and ideas. She is the happiest, most affectionate person I have ever met. To tell me that I should have aborted her so that you could have pennies back on your taxes is the cruelest, most hideous thing I have ever heard. I cannot express how contemptible you people are, or fathom how black your heart must be. God have mercy on you, and I hope you never have to face the same choice. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/65 "2015-10-22T19:22:52Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Disturbing? At what point would that love not disturb you? Because a newborn out of the womb is hardly more conversant or personality-having than when developing in the womb. Right. Which is why I wasn’t talking about newborn babies, but rather conversant and personality-having human beings. I used these adjectives intentionally. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/66 "2015-10-22T20:01:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Right. Which is why I wasn’t talking about newborn babies, but rather conversant and personality-having human beings. I used these adjectives intentionally. But, as a general rule, people _do_ love their new babies. (Many are even effusively fond of other people’s new babies.) If you find this “completely irrational,” perhaps it’s time to recognize that the whole terms of the [questions of parental love](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18112744&postcount=7) here are not familiar territory for you. Or, concede that [love isn’t necessarily supposed to “make sense.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18216017&postcount=10) ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/67 "2015-10-22T20:51:29Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I appear to be one of the few people here who actually has a child with mental disabilities. My child does not have Downs, but she is severely disabled and requires specialized care. > > I love her so much and I can’t imagine my life without her in it. I am also extremely thankful because I know that as bad off as she is, there are others out there who have it so much worse. > > I can understand the parent’s doubts and their conflicted feelings. What I can’t understand are the people who categorically dismiss my child as a drain on taxpayers, as though she is nothing more than a parasitic tumor with legs. She is a complete human being in every way. She has her own hopes and ideas. She is the happiest, most affectionate person I have ever met. > > To tell me that I should have aborted her so that you could have pennies back on your taxes is the cruelest, most hideous thing I have ever heard. I cannot express how contemptible you people are, or fathom how black your heart must be. God have mercy on you, and I hope you never have to face the same choice. I don’t have a child with disabilities, but when I was pregnant with my second child I was told that there was a strong possibility that she might have Downs. I never considered aborting her. And yes, this thread is quite appalling. I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with Urbanredneck before, so there’s that. ETA: I’m pro-choice if that matters. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/68 "2015-10-22T21:05:41Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But, as a general rule, people _do_ love their new babies. (Many are even effusively fond of other people’s new babies.) If you find this “completely irrational,” perhaps it’s time to recognize that the whole terms of the [questions of parental love](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18112744&postcount=7) here are not familiar territory for you. Or, concede that [love isn’t necessarily supposed to “make sense.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18216017&postcount=10) WTF is wrong with the reading comprehension around here? Loving _embryos and fetuses_ the same as _children_ is disturbing _to me_. I get that it’s not disturbing to you and everyone else apparently. But this doesn’t make it any less disturbing to me. I’d also be disturbed if a person loved their dog more than their kid. This is not an indictment of their character, since I don’t think love can be helped (oxytocin is a powerful drug). But it would still creep me out. I’m not about to apologize for expressing how I feel about something. I wish people would stop responding to snippets of my posts. I was responding to someone’s mawkish pleading that “abandoning” a disabled fetus is the same as abandoning a child who later becomes disabed. The two actions are not equivalent actions for most people because people generally do not relate to fetuses the same way they do children. Whether rightly or wrongly, the reality is that they don’t. And it’s not rocket science to me why this is the case. Is it rocket science to you? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/69 "2015-10-22T21:28:55Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I do support the parents’ right to make that decision based on their needs and beliefs, and based on factual information from their physician, without interference from any quarter. Does the mother’s decision automatically trump the father’s? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/70 "2015-10-22T21:36:10Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Does the mother’s decision automatically trump the father’s? When it’s her body, yes, yes it does. I’d feel the same if she tried to force him to get a vasectomy. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/71 "2015-10-22T21:38:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m not about to apologize for expressing how I feel about something. The problem is when you splain to people who _are_ or have been in situations that you haven’t, your own academic, outsider’s view. Like here– > [@monstro](#): > > Knowing a child that you’ve not yet bonded with, who exists only in the abstraction, will be disabled, potentially severely so, is very different from accepting that an existing child you’ve already bonded and connected with may later become disabled. How would you know? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/72 "2015-10-22T23:15:40Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The problem is when you splain to people who _are_ or have been in situations that you haven’t, your own academic, outsider’s view. Like here– So I assume you are a person who hasn’t bonded with an embryo/fetus, but feels very much bonded to their children? Because if you’re a person who bonded with an embryo/fetus and loved it the same as a talking, walking child, then guess what? \*I am not talking about you. \*. I’m speaking about people who are the complete opposite of you. Like possibly the OP’s grandson. Or the millions of other people who have chosen to terminate a pregnancy, but would never in a million years dream of killing or abandoning their children. > [@](#): > > How would you know? I have basic reasoning skills, that’s how. It does not take a genius (or a parent) to understand why a person would abort a fetus with severe handicaps, but commit themselves to caring for a child who later develops severe handicaps. Do you understand how can this be? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/73 "2015-10-23T01:52:01Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > I don’t have a child with disabilities, but when I was pregnant with my second child I was told that there was a strong possibility that she might have Downs. I never considered aborting her. > > And yes, this thread is quite appalling. I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with Urbanredneck before, so there’s that. > > ETA: I’m pro-choice if that matters. Do you mind if I ask what indicators you had? My daughter has not had amniocentesis, just ultrasounds and we keep hoping that maybe the diagnosis is incorrect. We will love and care for the child regardless, but we keep hoping. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/74 "2015-10-23T06:52:36Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Yes I am thinking that allergies are less bad. You think that a deadly condition is less bad than one which depending on the severity may be debilitating or not? We certainly have different criteria of “bad”. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/75 "2015-10-23T08:04:00Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > My BFF LOL > [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Not quite the same thing, now is it? 😃 You sound kinda annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/76 "2015-10-23T08:27:09Z")
My son has autism and is five, the non-verbal kind as in total lack of verbal communication. And if I could go back in time and know he would turn out like this I’d do nothing different. I don’t even say this with my current love of him in mind, I like the person he is and honestly it was cool to have a kid I GET completely. And what is most important which is his quality of life, he is a happy and joyous kid who enjoys his life. My greatest joy in life is spending time with him, and making him happy. I’m not religious and believe in pro choice completely, plus the idea that all down syndrome cases are severe is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/77 "2015-10-23T09:13:40Z")
I get what you mean, monstro, and I’m not sure why others seem to be misreading you. Of course most people don’t love their foetuses _as much as_ they love the baby once it’s born, and that’s all you’ve said. I loved my daughter when she was in the womb, but it was nothing compared to when she was born and that was nothing compared to how much it’s grown over time. It would be a little weird for your love for a foetus to be equal to your love for a born person. And I am female, since it seems to matter. I mean, a lot of people would consider abortion but wouldn’t consider infanticide even if it were legal. Can’t prove that, of course (imagine that survey!) but I think it’s a reasonable assumption. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > How would you know? How would you know that your child is going to be disabled? Through testing. Amniocentesis is pretty accurate when combined with other tests. Scans aren’t, however; I have friends who were warned of possible Down’s whose babies were born without it. So there is hope, MLS. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/78 "2015-10-23T11:48:44Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Do you mind if I ask what indicators you had? My daughter has not had amniocentesis, just ultrasounds and we keep hoping that maybe the diagnosis is incorrect. We will love and care for the child regardless, but we keep hoping. Not at all. This was 15 years ago, mind you, so the technology may have changed. I didn’t have amniocentesis either, since there’s a small but deadly (for the fetus) risk involved. So, lots of worry, as in your family. It was something about my daughter’s neck on the ultrasound, as well as a blood test. The blood test was given as a first round screening for Downs. The results were based on whatever was in the blood combined with my age–I was in my early 40s at the time. The ultrasound did show that my daughter most likely did NOT have some of the more difficult and dangerous physical issues that sometimes accompany Downs. But of course no test can tell you how severe the cognitive issues will be. Kids are a crapshoot. There’s all kinds of stuff you can’t control or predict. We said we’d love whoever showed up. She turned out to be pretty complicated without the Downs in ways we never could have predicted (and we love her dearly). ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/79 "2015-10-23T13:11:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I find it very disturbing that a person could love a fetus the same way they love a conscious, conversant, personality-having, huggable person. It confirms to me that love is completely irrational and has no place in an argument like this one. If that is where you are coming from, then you and I will never find common ground on this issue. Sounds to me like you consider love something to be earned. I don’t. Completely mutually exclusive positions. > [@monstro](#): > > But even if your wife truly loves fetuses exactly like her fully formed children, your wife’s feelings do not refute my point that people in general do not relate to a fetus the same way that they relate to a child that’s already been born. Many people feel an obligation to care for a fetus, regardless of whether the pregnancy was planned. But many people also do not feel this sense of obligation. If this were not the case, abortion wouldn’t be a thing. Invalid premise and faulty logic. IME, the vast majority of women DO relate to a fetus the same as a child - they talk to them, play music for them, cuddle them (as best one can from the outside), and worry about them. As for your second “point” research cultures where infanticide is/was common. If abortion did not exist, infanticide would be more prevalent. > [@monstro](#): > > Um, you’re basically saying you don’t agree with the evidence because you don’t trust people to tell the truth about their own feelings. Thus, I’m guessing there are no studies that you would accept, since they’re all going to be based on self-reporting. Um, known drawback to research. I presented you studies on BOTH sides of the issue and pointed out drawbacks to BOTH methodologies. The point was “we can’t really know, because people suck at quantifying feelings”. > [@monstro](#): > > As long as we’re critiquing everything, I think it’s fair to wonder if a lot of the negative feelings that women face post-abortion are due, at least in part, to the shame placed on them by others. Of course the decision is a tough one to make when you have to wade through throngs of protestors waving graphic posters. So it IS a traumatic decision then? That’s all I was saying, thanks for agreeing. > [@monstro](#): > > And then there’s the smugness from mothers and fathers who think that because they loved their precious little blastulas from Day 1, that means everyone must too. Why wouldn’t this kind of pressure make someone second-guess their decision? Much like your smugness in believing it can’t be so? Nice. > [@monstro](#): > > I believe women who say that their abortions were not major, life-destroying, regretful decisions. I, too, believe some women feel this way. I disagree with your contention, based on your feelings only, that it applies to the majority of women. > [@monstro](#): > > I also believe that the vast majority of these women would feel quite traumatized if their nascent, huggable, kissable, face-having, name-possessing children were terminated. :rolleyes: > [@monstro](#): > > Because embryos/fetuses are not the same as children in _most people’s view_. There you go again projecting your feelings on the majority of women. > [@monstro](#): > > It’s funny that you cite your wife’s feelings, but not yours. How come? Not germane to your assertions, which all apply to women. You do like to use smokescreens, though. Look, I get that you are posting how YOU feel. I have no issue with that. I only take issue when you assume that your feelings must be shared by most others and then present that as “fact”. It just ain’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/80 "2015-10-23T14:00:13Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > I don’t have a child with disabilities, but when I was pregnant with my second child I was told that there was a strong possibility that she might have Downs. I never considered aborting her. > > And yes, this thread is quite appalling. I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with Urbanredneck before, so there’s that. > > ETA: I’m pro-choice if that matters. Thanks, I’m actually pro-choice to. I would never want the right to abort to be taken away. And I’ll go back to kids are complicated and one ever knows what issues they will have. But that brings another point, if we start screening for Downs then what else will we screen for? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297.md?page=5)