# Down Syndrom kids. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 20, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297 "2015-10-20T23:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/81 "2015-10-23T14:03:17Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > I can understand the parent’s doubts and their conflicted feelings. What I can’t understand are the people who categorically **dismiss my child as a drain on taxpayers,** as though she is nothing more than a parasitic tumor with legs. She is a complete human being in every way. She has her own hopes and ideas. She is the happiest, most affectionate person I have ever met. > > To tell me that I should have aborted her so that **you could have pennies back on your taxes** is the cruelest, most hideous thing I have ever heard. I cannot express how contemptible you people are, or fathom how black your heart must be. God have mercy on you, and I hope you never have to face the same choice. I havent had that but I have had some parents tell me that because my son is so expensive, the school cannot have things like band. When actually the 2 issues have nothing in common. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/82 "2015-10-23T14:13:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You think that a deadly condition is less bad than one which depending on the severity may be debilitating or not? We certainly have different criteria of “bad”. Yeah I thought I made that clear. I’d much prefer to have a deadly allergy than have Down’s syndrome. Am I in the minority? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/83 "2015-10-23T15:45:40Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Invalid premise and faulty logic. IME, the vast majority of women DO relate to a fetus the same as a child - they talk to them, play music for them, cuddle them (as best one can from the outside), and worry about them Cite? I mean, I don’t doubt there are lot of women who view their pregnancies this way, but there are a crap load who don’t. Your assertion raises my eyebrows. I’d predict that women who feel supported by their spouses and who actually _want_ to be pregnant will have no problems relating to their fetus as if they are a fully actualized human being, with all the feelings that come with that. But I wouldn’t dream of extrapolating this feeling to most women who have unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. This latter condition is pretty damn common, especially when we’re talking about impoverished communities without access to birth control or economic opportunities for women. Even if we posit that most pregnant women feel a bond with their fetus, I question whether this bond is _identical_ to the one most parents have with their born children. Playing music and “cuddling” an unseen being growing inside you is one thing. But with the months and years of sweat equity that goes into raising kids, worrying about them, learning their personality, and seeing the world through their eyes…I can see how the bond that comes from that is on a completely different level. In my opinion, it’s the difference between having a long distance relationship with someone you’ve never seen and navigating life married to someone you see everyday. So I understand and agree with **monstro’s** point. The beauty of choice is that we’re all free to make the decision to abort or not abort for ourselves, if we ever find ourselves pregnant with a fetus likely to be born with major complications. If you think the decision to abort a Down fetus is no different than deciding to murder a Down child, then logically if follows abortion will not be desired. But many people–men and women–simply don’t subscribe to that equivalence. And that’s okay, really. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/84 "2015-10-23T15:57:03Z")
I don’t doubt that for some women there is an immediate attachment. But I think **monstro** is also right that for many woman the idea of being pregnant is very abstract at first. Do you actually love the fetus or the idea that in 9 months you’ll have a baby? I think for many woman there is a gradual increase in attachment as the pregnancy progresses, which at least at first is also dependent somewhat on the circumstances of the pregnancy, such as whether it was planned vs unplanned. The behaviors you mention like singing, talking, etc., in my experience, are far more common further along in the pregnancy when the mother has had more time to bond and can feel it moving, whereas the whole premise of this thread is the decision to have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/85 "2015-10-23T16:06:31Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I get what you mean, monstro, and I’m not sure why others seem to be misreading you. Of course most people don’t love their foetuses _as much as_ they love the baby once it’s born, and that’s all you’ve said. I loved my daughter when she was in the womb, but it was nothing compared to when she was born and that was nothing compared to how much it’s grown over time. It would be a little weird for your love for a foetus to be equal to your love for a born person. And I am female, since it seems to matter. So it’s fair to say that if you have a second child you will love you daughter more than your unborn baby / newborn baby / toddler? Basically, you always love your oldest the most. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/86 "2015-10-23T16:07:40Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I don’t doubt that for some women there is an immediate attachment. But I think **monstro** is also right that for many woman the idea of being pregnant is very abstract at first. Do you actually love the fetus or the idea that in 9 months you’ll have a baby? I think for many woman there is a gradual increase in attachment as the pregnancy progresses, which at least at first is also dependent somewhat on the circumstances of the pregnancy, such as whether it was planned vs unplanned. The behaviors you mention like singing, talking, etc., in my experience, are far more common further along in the pregnancy when the mother has had more time to bond and can feel it moving, whereas the whole premise of this thread is the decision to have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. Not so very early. If I’m remembering correctly, the initial screening can take place at 10 weeks, the definitive testing not until the second trimester. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/87 "2015-10-23T16:12:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > When it’s her body, yes, yes it does. I’d feel the same if she tried to force him to get a vasectomy. I agree with this, in answer to **gigi** ’s question. Biology is unfair, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/88 "2015-10-23T16:16:49Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I don’t doubt that for some women there is an immediate attachment. But I think **monstro** is also right that for many woman the idea of being pregnant is very abstract at first. Do you actually love the fetus or the idea that in 9 months you’ll have a baby? I think for many woman there is a gradual increase in attachment as the pregnancy progresses, which at least at first is also dependent somewhat on the circumstances of the pregnancy, such as whether it was planned vs unplanned. The behaviors you mention like singing, talking, etc., in my experience, are far more common further along in the pregnancy when the mother has had more time to bond and can feel it moving, whereas the whole premise of this thread is the decision to have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. Exactly! Alll of this! I don’t know why **Doctor Jackson** seems to think I’m saying anything more controversial than “different strokes for different folks.” A fetus is not a sacred beloved human being to everyone, everywhere, at all times. Children, however, are almost universally valued. To liken feticide to infanticide or pedicide is to ignore this basic reality. It is sheer craziness to guilt a person about their decision to have an abortion by implying they’d kill their child if only it were legal to do so. That’s CRAZY talk. And a person shouldn’t have to have “Mommy” as their job title to be able to express this opinion. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/89 "2015-10-23T16:19:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But that brings another point, if we start screening for Downs then what else will we screen for? If we were talking about a condition much more severe and debilitating than Downs, would you be asking this question? Or to put it another way, why _not_ screen for genetic disorders like Downs, if you’re pro-choice? Why is a Downs fetus more entitled to life than some other fetus that might be terminated for other reasons? Let’s say it goes against my personal ethics to bring someone into the world _fully knowing_ they will have to deal with physical pain, social stigma, cognitive disabilities, and other issues that most people don’t have to deal with. If I have the power to prevent this suffering early on, before it even begins, why would I not make that choice? Would it be more ethical for me to bring this child into the world, gambling on the chance that whatever joy and happiness awaits them in life will outweigh the significant negatives also awaiting them? Or maybe I shouldn’t care at all about their joy and happiness? Should concerns of quality of life not matter at all? Everyone conducts their costs-benefits analyses differently, I get that. But questions of morality and ethics apply with both choices. It is not clear to me that you understand that, but perhaps I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/90 "2015-10-23T16:22:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I mean, I don’t doubt there are lot of women who view their pregnancies this way, but there are a crap load who don’t. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/91 "2015-10-23T16:50:11Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > So it’s fair to say that if you have a second child you will love you daughter more than your unborn baby / newborn baby / toddler? Basically, you always love your oldest the most. As taboo as it is to admit in our culture, many parents ([fathers in particular](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=7798274)) do indeed report deeper bonds with their older children than in their infants. But that is not a permanent disparity. With time, as the kid develops, they feel closer. Is this really that much of a surprise? I mean, I will be trying to get pregnant soon and am looking forward to it, but I’ve already told myself not to beat myself up if “love at first sight” fails to happen immediately following birth. Because it’s very common for the bond to take a while to truly solidify, even ([gasp](http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/forming-a-bond-with-your-baby-why-it-isnt-always-immediate)!) in mothers. The last thing I’m gonna need is a bunch critical self-talk if my emotions don’t conform with conventional dogma regarding how mothers are _supposed_ to feel. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/92 "2015-10-23T17:02:44Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Cite? Do you think the 730,000+ abortions reported to the [CDC in 2011](http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm) were performed on women who were dragged into the clinic, kicking and screaming? Or do you think it’s quite possible that the majority of them calmly, deliberately got the procedure done, with minimal psychological consequences? Why does anyone need a cite for something as basic as “not everyone loves fetuses as much as you do”? Can someone please explain this to me, cuz I’m just not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/93 "2015-10-23T17:11:12Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > So it’s fair to say that if you have a second child you will love you daughter more than your unborn baby / newborn baby / toddler? Basically, you always love your oldest the most. Yet another person on the Dope reading something into a post that’s not there. That’s not what she said. > [@monstro](#): > > And a person shouldn’t have to have “Mommy” as their job title to be able to express this opinion. It’s just another example of how a subset of people are so self-centered they can’t conceive of others having a different opinion. Not every parent bonds equally quickly to their offspring. Our society likes to believe that ain’t so, but it is. ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/94 "2015-10-23T17:54:48Z")
You know, I really don’t think 1st trimester, elective abortions are hugely relevant here. I have no comment on what that is like, it’s not something in my world of personal experience, but I think it’s fair to say that once you’ve passed the first trimester, and have started to receive prenatal care, then you are probably bonded with your unborn kid in some way. No one forces you to go to an OB – if the woman has chosen to do so, and is having ultrasounds performed, then I think it’s a reasonable assumption that she was planning to give birth to a live human. Entirely different situation that someone who has not yet decided to keep the pregnancy. And as mentioned, if the couple is far enough along to get this sort of news then it is almost certainly not an early pregnancy. I had genetic screening at 12-14 weeks, but that is because I was over 35. If the woman is under 35 and low-risk, then entirely possible that this couple did not find out until 20 week ultrasound. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/95 "2015-10-23T18:17:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yet another person on the Dope reading something into a post that’s not there. That’s not what she said. Well, I did phrase my inference as a question. But I don’t know how else to read this: \*I loved my daughter when she was in the womb, \* OK. \*but it was nothing compared to when she was born \* Ok, so more love for born baby compared to in-the-womb-baby. \*and that was nothing compared to how much it’s grown over time. \* And yet even more love as time goes on. I’m not even judging, just trying to understand different people’s feelings towards their kids. I have 2 kids. I could probably understand saying you have a stronger bond with your kid as he/she grows, and having a stronger bond with the oldest. But, for me personally, I can’t grasp having more love for your kid over time or more love for your more developed kid. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/96 "2015-10-23T18:28:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I havent had that but I have had some parents tell me that because my son is so expensive, the school cannot have things like band. When actually the 2 issues have nothing in common. Educate me please - how do they “have nothing in common”? For starters, I’ll go out on a limb and suggest they both involve the expenditure of public funds… ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/97 "2015-10-23T18:38:06Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Educate me please - how do they “have nothing in common”? > > For starters, I’ll go out on a limb and suggest they both involve the expenditure of public funds… My nephew needed speech therapy at school, but wasn’t able to get it. The principal explained that if they paid for a speech therapist, the high school wouldn’t be able to have a football team. This was in New York, in the 1990’s, in a small town. (He did eventually get speech therapy, but not at his elementary school.) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/98 "2015-10-23T18:39:46Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Well, I did phrase my inference as a question. But I don’t know how else to read this: > > \*I loved my daughter when she was in the womb, \* > OK. > > \*but it was nothing compared to when she was born \* > Ok, so more love for born baby compared to in-the-womb-baby. > > \*and that was nothing compared to how much it’s grown over time. \* > And yet even more love as time goes on. > > I’m not even judging, just trying to understand different people’s feelings towards their kids. I have 2 kids. I could probably understand saying you have a stronger bond with your kid as he/she grows, and having a stronger bond with the oldest. But, for me personally, I can’t grasp having more love for your kid over time or more love for your more developed kid. If my mother said she loved me the same as the stilllborn baby she carried 20 years ago, I’d feel weird. I’d feel like my mother doesn’t really love me for who I am, but rather the general concept I represent. I don’t want to believe that in my mother’s eyes, I’m completely interchangeable with a ball of cells. I’d like to think that my mother would choose me over a ball of cells without hesitation. Can you grasp loving one kid more than another, irrespective of age? Because I can. And quite a few people can attest to being the “less loved” sibling. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/99 "2015-10-23T18:56:02Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I’m not even judging, just trying to understand different people’s feelings towards their kids. I have 2 kids. I could probably understand saying you have a stronger bond with your kid as he/she grows, and having a stronger bond with the oldest. But, for me personally, I can’t grasp having more love for your kid over time or more love for your more developed kid. I guess it all boils down to how you define love. Personally, if my bond for someone is strong, then it follows that I love them more than someone for whom I feel less bonded. Love = bond to me, because I can’t imagine a situation in which I’ve bonded strongly with someone but don’t love them equally strong. The converse is also foreign to me. Which brings me to another commonly touted assertion that seems false to me: the idea that parents love their children equally. Why wouldn’t feelings of love and attachment between parents and their kids be dynamic and subject to different influences, just as it is for other relationships? I think it’s okay for a parent to feel closer to one child than another just as long the parent _acts_ loving towards both. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297/100 "2015-10-23T19:06:50Z")
Well, then I guess that’s the disconnect for me. I do not equate a bond with love. My bond with my parents is not nearly as strong as it was when I actually lived with them. Do I love them less? Of course not. Do they love me less? I would hope not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-syndrom-kids/735297.md?page=6)