# Down with Algebra II! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 2, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733 "2016-03-02T14:26:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Islander\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@Islander\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Islander_M)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/161 "2016-03-11T08:54:58Z")
I think it was Descartes who unified the two. Analytic geometry, or Cartesian geometry, plots the algebraic/geometric expression in a coordinate system of one, two or three dimensions. Doing that allows you to “plot” the results of your algebra on a graph, and do the reverse (extract.) Same when performing calculus. Basic mathematical analysis (senior high school and freshman college) has to have both calculus and analytic geometry. Synthetic geometry (I learned that term just now) is your junior high geometry wherein you study axioms related to shapes to solve problems. This is pure geometry, the kind the Romans were good at. It’s a good discipline on its own, along with trigonometry, but I feel geometry really took off with the Cartesian system. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/162 "2016-03-11T08:57:02Z")
I think you mean the Greeks. The Romans were a lot more interested in applied math. They preferred building aqueducts and coliseums instead of arguing over lines in the sand. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Islander\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@Islander\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Islander_M)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/163 "2016-03-11T09:01:52Z")
Possible. Well geometry is a very useful tool in engineering. I’m still wondering why modern humans are so awed by things like the Nazca lines, when a competent surveyor in ancient times could have easily laid out those patterns with a measuring tape, a string, and a triangular template. I said the Roman bit to contrast with the Arabs, who seemed to find algebra a bigger turn on. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/164 "2016-03-11T13:12:42Z")
> [@Islander\_M](#): > > Possible. Well geometry is a very useful tool in engineering. I’m still wondering why modern humans are so awed by things like the Nazca lines, when a competent surveyor in ancient times could have easily laid out those patterns with a measuring tape, a string, and a triangular template. > > . Indeed. Skeptic Joe Nickell made a full-size replica of one of the Nazca figues over thirty years ago, using just basic equipment – strings and pegs. Here’s the article he wrote about it, with pictures: [http://www.csicop.org/si/show/nazca\_drawings\_revisited](http://www.csicop.org/si/show/nazca_drawings_revisited) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/165 "2016-03-11T13:27:55Z")
> [@starryspice](#): > > I actually think this is a great argument for why we shouldn’t be having this argument - it’s silly to just declare something not useful. When we’re talking about wiping something out of the curriculum, we ought to do a little more than just say “I don’t think this is useful.” > > Yes, we should keep Algebra II, just like we should keep geometry, because you probably use both in your daily life without ever realizing it. Geometry teaches you spatial reasoning skills. I don’t recall taking Algebra II in high school, but from Shagnasty’s link to a sample curriculum, I’d say it’s pretty dang useful to know how to mathematically model something. And it’s just plain cool to know about Pi and e. (Read this if you don’t believe me, or even if you do: [The Baffling and Beautiful Wormhole Between Branches of Math | WIRED](http://www.wired.com/2014/11/eulers-identity/)) > > The argument behind most “it’s not useful” statements seems to be that that person wasn’t good at it, and maybe that person didn’t get the full value out of it. That’s ok - it’s ok to be bad at something. I was bad at some things too - my poetry teacher forbid me from rhyming after I handed in my first poem, and I still don’t understand why - but that didn’t mean I wanted to clear those things out of the curriculum. One thing to be aware of is this isn’t really keeping Alg II, it wasn’t there 20 years ago and isn’t there for a lot of states now. Its been added under the Lake Woebegon Theory of Education that P-Man points out. Most of that stuff is covered in Alg I: [Khan Academy](https://www.khanacademy.org/math/algebra) Alg II takes that stuff and adds to it: [Khan Academy](https://www.khanacademy.org/math/algebra2) And the issue isn’t that its not ok to be bad at something, its that if you are bad at this, you don’t graduate high school. You can’t go on to trade school, you can’t go to community college, you are going to struggle to find a living wage job. The other thing that has happened in Lake Woebegon is that they’ve gotten hard assed on grades. Math isn’t subjective, where they can give you a few extra points on the essay to get you the D- you need to pass. Teachers don’t tend to give points for trying. Turning in all of your homework and getting 100% on it all is only worth 15% of a grade - 85% of the grade in my kids high school - and the other high schools my friend’s kids go to - is tests. A kid who is bad at math with test anxiety and undiagnosed ADHD now has a career running the french fry machine. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/166 "2016-03-11T20:33:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > but I literally still have nightmares about Algebra II because I almost failed the second semester of my senior year Why so late? I took AII my Freshman year. One of the funnest classes besides Biology and Chemistry. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/167 "2016-03-11T21:37:03Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Why so late? I took AII my Freshman year. One of the funnest classes besides Biology and Chemistry. I took it junior year and failed the first semester; I managed to pull out a D- for the year. Junior year was when it was normally taken back in the dark ages. My kids took it in 8th and 10th; both aced it. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/168 "2016-03-11T21:51:27Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Why so late? I took AII my Freshman year. One of the funnest classes besides Biology and Chemistry. Because I knew I would hate it so I wanted to put it off as long as possible. I tried to get out of the requirement by taking it as a correspondence course but couldn’t even get up the motivation to make it past the first couple of chapters so I was stuck taking it the long way. I probably failed the class in reality but the teacher was not going to stop me from graduating and going to college. I took other classes from him as well and did fine in those. It was just that one. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/169 "2016-03-11T23:29:17Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And the issue isn’t that its not ok to be bad at something, its that if you are bad at this, you don’t graduate high school. You can’t go on to trade school, you can’t go to community college, you are going to struggle to find a living wage job. The other thing that has happened in Lake Woebegon is that they’ve gotten hard assed on grades. Math isn’t subjective, where they can give you a few extra points on the essay to get you the D- you need to pass. Teachers don’t tend to give points for trying. Turning in all of your homework and getting 100% on it all is only worth 15% of a grade - 85% of the grade in my kids high school - and the other high schools my friend’s kids go to - is tests. A kid who is bad at math with test anxiety and undiagnosed ADHD now has a career running the french fry machine. That’s a large part of the reason why I don’t have a business degree - I thought it was going to be stuff like “How to run a business” and “How to lead people” and “Contract negotiations” and stuff like that. Instead, the first year was full of filthy, evil, Communist _maths_ - none of which anyone was ever able to satisfactorily explain the relevance of. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/170 "2016-03-12T04:11:41Z")
35 years ago in high school I had algebra 1, 2, Geometry, Trig, Adv senior math, and programming. Aced them all. 3 years of college with Calc, Adv Calc, Business Math, and Statistics along with Logic. Mostly B’s. Went to work in industrial trades with some electrical engineering. Reading through this thread, most of the math terminology is foreign. I don’t remember hardly any of it. Most everything I need, I look up on a chart. If I need to know what formula to use, I look it up. Hard to explain to my two high schoolers why they have to know this stuff beyond because. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/171 "2016-03-12T15:56:47Z")
I believe that learning Algebra I teaches the student how to think Algebraically, to mean instead of solving 2 + 3 = ?, we solve 2 + ? = 5. This is an important way to think of things, what to we need to add to what we have to get to what we want, and this way of thinking is just one more tool in the students’ toolbox to manage all of life’s experiences. In geometry, the student learns all them proof and derivations and this teaches the logical way to deduce answers. Again, just another tool in the students’ toolbox. In a world full of trade offs, we need to balance each consideration, give each some weight and logically deduce which choice best serves our needs. This doesn’t seem like an Algebraic or geometric problem, but we can use these techniques to find our solution. My point is it’s hard to say whether we use Algebra on a regular basis or not. Certainly we’re not solving expanded polynomials, but how often to we use the techniques? I agree Algebra II is overkill for most of the non-STEM fields, and replacing that class for statistics is an amazing good idea. In addition, I think a class that gives a quick survey of these “higher” mathematics would be great. Something where we just touch upon some of the concepts so that the student at least knows that there exists these “higher” techniques. With STEM fields I think we do need to require these classes. I understand engineers just look up the information on a table, but making them take calculus works as a screening mechanism. Do we as a society want people who can’t pass college level mathematics designing our bridges, whether they use this math or not? That university degree is suppose to mean the holder has a universal education, they know something of calculus, chemistry, racial relationships, creative writing and a whole lot about 15th century French literature. That’s the set-up for my funny tale … the teacher up front telling us to go ahead and forget everything we learned in those two years of high school Algebra … here’s the _easy_ way to get the solutions … ten minutes later and I’ve basically never had to use Algebra again. Just too funny … ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/172 "2016-03-12T16:34:08Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > That’s a large part of the reason why I don’t have a business degree - I thought it was going to be stuff like “How to run a business” and “How to lead people” and “Contract negotiations” and stuff like that. Instead, the first year was full of filthy, evil, Communist _maths_ - none of which anyone was ever able to satisfactorily explain the relevance of. I have an accounting degree, so there is a huge need to be able to put the numbers in the right order to figure out future value or calculate straight line depreciation or run an ROI calculation or model variable costs. But its mostly Alg I stuff. I’m sure financial derivatives take a lot more math. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733/173 "2016-03-14T00:40:22Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I wonder what math requirements other countries with very high graduation rates have. We had at least one poster weighing in from outside the U.S. That’ll be me, then. I’ll be honest, I’ve done so much maths in my life that I kind of forget what I did when. Also, in sixth form (when you do the exams that get you into University) I also did Further Maths, which is a very optional extension of what’s in the national curriculum. I do remember a lecturer saying that a large part of the first year at university was going to be repeating stuff I’d done at school as they need to cover everything so everyone would be at the same level. Regarding what I use it for, I’m a computer programmer. I find a lot of the way I think stems from all the maths I did. In my day job I do a lot of database work - relational databases are based pretty much on set theory. In my spare time a I write games. That can be very maths heavy, especially 3D stuff. And if you are interested in the behind the scenes stuff then it gets VERY maths heavy. For example, most 3D engines use quaternions instead of Euler angles to calculate rotations and movement in 3D space as doing so avoids the problem of gimbal lock (remember In old first person shooters how you couldn’t look directly up? That was an even simpler solution to the same problem). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/down-with-algebra-ii/747733.md?page=8)