# Downton Abbey, Christmas Special (U.S. premiere Feb. 19, 2012) - Spoilers embargoed **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265 "2012-02-18T20:06:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/21 "2012-02-20T14:42:18Z")
But is she not a virgin? (And if this has been worked through in other D.A. threads, I apologize.) Pamouk tells Mary there are things they can do that won’t endanger her virginity. And if you think about the position in which Pamouk’s body is found, it is one in which, if Pamouk had been performing oral sex on her when he died, she could have extricated herself without disturbing the body, as opposed to if he had been on top of her. Or does the technicality of an intact hymen even matter as far as her “virginity” goes? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/22 "2012-02-20T15:03:40Z")
Regarding The Black Bottom, according to wiki: [“The Original Black Bottom Dance” was printed in 1919.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Bottom_(dance)) How is this an inaccuracy? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/23 "2012-02-20T15:37:19Z")
> [@freckafree](#): > > But is she not a virgin? (And if this has been worked through in other D.A. threads, I apologize.) Pamouk tells Mary there are things they can do that won’t endanger her virginity. And if you think about the position in which Pamouk’s body is found, it is one in which, if Pamouk had been performing oral sex on her when he died, she could have extricated herself without disturbing the body, as opposed to if he had been on top of her. > > Or does the technicality of an intact hymen even matter as far as her “virginity” goes? They have never been explicit about what sexual acts they engaged in, but I think it’s pretty clear they engaged in penile-vaginal intercourse, and from what Mary said, Pamuk had a heart attack when _he_ climaxed. That wouldn’t happen if he were performing oral sex on her. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/24 "2012-02-20T15:37:26Z")
That same article says the Black Bottom was a craze of the 1920’s. > [@](#): > > The dance was featured in the Harlem show Dinah in 1924, and then “The Scandals of 1926,” whereupon it became a national craze. Nobody at Downton Abbey is _that_ hip about American dances… ---
**Author:** ![MsJinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MsJinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsJinx)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/25 "2012-02-20T15:38:43Z")
Mr. Bates’ trial: since Anna is not compelled to testify (being his wife), if it weren’t for the eavesdropping, the prosecution would not have so much damaging testimony. I don’t recall anyone overhearing Mr. Bates and Lord G up in his room while dressing, though. In prompting Lord G, the prosecution referred to something that Bates had volunteered about their conversation. Mr. Bates is just too honest for his own good. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/26 "2012-02-20T15:55:23Z")
Sir Richard: It’s unlikely you will see me again! Granny: Do you promise? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/27 "2012-02-20T16:32:52Z")
How did the prosecution know to call O’Brien and Hughes to ask about what they heard while eavesdropping? Or were they just hoping they’d heard something? Seemed like they knew what they knew from the way they were questioned. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/28 "2012-02-20T16:53:39Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > How did the prosecution know to call O’Brien and Hughes to ask about what they heard while eavesdropping? Or were they just hoping they’d heard something? Seemed like they knew what they knew from the way they were questioned. These days potential witnesses have to submit a witness statement (which is then distributed to the other side as well) which states what they will say. I don’t know if this was the case in 1919 (the current procedures are based upon the Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act 1996, which renacts previous law, but dating from when, I have no idea). Why did they ask the Home Secretary for clemency rather than file leave to appeal before the Court of Criminal Appeal, I’ll never know. Oh hell, even Writ of Certiorari to the Queens errrr Kings Bench Division. Clemency is the last throw of the dice before the hangman, not the first thing you do after a trial. All in all, poor Bates, his legal team sucked. ---
**Author:** ![MsJinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MsJinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsJinx)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/29 "2012-02-20T16:58:04Z")
One odd thing about Mrs. Hughes’ testimony was the prosecution asking if Mr. Bates threatened or was going to hit Vera. I don’t recall him saying he was going to, just Vera saying go ahead, and I’ll get pictures made. Mrs. Hughes could not see them, just hear them, so there should have been some objection that she did not know if he was poised to strike her or not. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/30 "2012-02-20T17:00:25Z")
“Mais, où sont les neiges d’antan” is commonly said when reminiscing about a dashing suitor of yesteryear. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/31 "2012-02-20T17:11:08Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Regarding The Black Bottom, according to wiki: [“The Original Black Bottom Dance” was printed in 1919.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Bottom_(dance)) > > How is this an inaccuracy? Yeah, right, who wrote that Wikipedia entry, Julian Fellowes? I did a \*lot \*of research on early 20th-century dances for a book, and no one was dancing the Black Bottom till 1923/24 at the earliest, certainly not Lady Violet. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/32 "2012-02-20T17:13:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear they engaged in penile-vaginal intercourse, and from what Mary said, Pamuk had a heart attack when _he_ climaxed. She is going to be very chagrined when she finds out that doesn’t \*always \*happen. “Carson? We shan’t be needing the funeral home, after all.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/33 "2012-02-20T18:47:42Z")
> [@freckafree](#): > > …Or does the technicality of an intact hymen even matter as far as her “virginity” goes? She had a man who was neither white or a Christian in her bed. As far as “polite society” in 1920 is concerned she’s a whore. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/34 "2012-02-20T18:49:06Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Sir Richard: It’s unlikely you will see me again! > > Granny: Do you promise? > > 😃 Best punchline of the season. And not just for this show. [QUOTE=Eve] Yeah, right, who wrote that Wikipedia entry, Julian Fellowes? I did a lot of research on early 20th-century dances for a book, and no one was dancing the Black Bottom till 1923/24 at the earliest, certainly not Lady Violet. [/QUOTE] Perhaps that’s why Violet refused to dance it with him. “It is not proper to perform a dance until it is in existence and popularized.” ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/35 "2012-02-20T20:14:21Z")
I was reading some viewer comments on the Downton Abby website [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/downtonabbey/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/downtonabbey/) earlier. Someone posed the question, if Bates didn’t kill Vera, who did? Could she really have killed herself? Or did someone else other than Bates? O’Brian? Thomas? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/36 "2012-02-20T20:40:38Z")
I’ve been assuming she killed herself and framed Bates. Not that that makes any sense or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/37 "2012-02-20T20:45:08Z")
The first series had an episode in which the Crawleys left Downton Abbey for their home in London for “The Season”. Does anybody know what time of year and how long ‘The Season’ would have been? ---
**Author:** ![MsJinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MsJinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsJinx)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/38 "2012-02-20T20:47:26Z")
She was a nasty piece of work. She may have had many people who wanted her dead. It’s just up to the good guys to find him/her. I thought for sure Richard would mention it as one of his parting remarks, if he had engineered it as part of the plan to protect Mary, but he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MsJinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MsJinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsJinx)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/39 "2012-02-20T20:51:19Z")
Did anyone else wonder if there would be an unfortunate shooting accident during the New Year’s Day hunt? When Sir Richard couldn’t find his attendant, I wondered if it would be an opportunity for hims to attempt to load his gun and have it go off…in Matthew’s direction. Or even anonymously shoot him. Forensics weren’t so adept at matching bullets to weapons back then. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265/40 "2012-02-20T20:58:15Z")
I’m confused by the discussions about Mary “stringing along” Sir Richard. It looked to me as if he was practically holding her hostage. “Marry me or I’ll ruin you…”, “Don’t cross me. EVER.”, and so on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-christmas-special-u-s-premiere-feb-19-2012-spoilers-embargoed/613265.md?page=3)