# Downton Abbey, Frozen, and Imitation of Life: Fans in common? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 3, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901 "2015-01-03T23:21:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/1 "2015-01-03T23:21:54Z")
With _Downton Abbey_ starting up tomorrow in the USA (series five will be shown on PBS), this has been on my mind. Though the three works featured in the poll have obvious differences, I’m wondering if they might have fans in common. If you like one, you’ll like the other(s), perhaps. The 1959 movie \*Imitation of Life \*is probably the least-familiar of the three, so I separated the poll questions concerning it from those focusing on _Frozen_ and _Downton Abbey_. Though it was a popular movie on release and remains readily available (with several DVD sets made over the years, and frequent television showings), it was never the massive cultural phenomenon that both F and DA have become. Still, there are some similarities in the themes and stories being told. That’s why I include it. A few facts and figures: _ **1959 Imitation of Life** _: This was the second filming of a popular 1933 novel by Fannie Hurst; it stars Lana Turner and Juanita Moore as mothers of daughters. The two women make a home together and struggle with their children’s challenges and problems, as the Lana Turner character rockets to career success on Broadway. _ **2010 Downton Abbey** _: This ITV series began in 1912 and has now reached 1924 in its intertwined stories of the Earl of Grantham, his family, and his servants. The show has become a worldwide success, with record ratings for PBS and impressive sales of DVDs and merchandise. _ **2013 Frozen** _: This award-winning Disney animated movie has broken innumerable records, both in the USA and abroad; it’s easily the highest-grossing animated feature of all time. The musical story depicts Princess Anna in her quest to save her older sister Elsa and their kingdom from Elsa’s own immense and uncontrolled powers, and features lovable sidekicks like an enchanted snowman and an intrepid ice-cutter. So, are fans of one likely to be fans of one or both of the others? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/2 "2015-01-03T23:27:06Z")
Downton Abbey and Frozen are both massive hits so of course you’ll find people who are fans of both. I have no idea why Imitation of Life has any reference to the others, and I’d bet most people today have not seen it, if they have even heard of it at all. Why do you think there is anything in common between these three things? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/3 "2015-01-03T23:33:10Z")
It’s true that at first glance none of the three appears to be much like either of the other two. I don’t want to go into detail about the commonalities I’m seeing (or positing) right off the bat, but in general, the three seem to come from a particular view of the way the world “should” be arranged. I’m just curious to know whether two fandoms (considering _Frozen_ and _Downton Abbey_, which are likely to be the works that will get the most responses), or three, might overlap. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/4 "2015-01-04T03:38:17Z")
I don’t see what they have in common either. I can’t answer your poll because you don’t have an option for people who haven’t seen _Frozen_ (or _Downton Abbey_, but it’s _Frozen_ that I personally have not seen). ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/5 "2015-01-04T05:19:38Z")
My mom and my brother both like \*Downton \*a lot but while both have seen \*Frozen \*(brother has 2 little girls, and mom watches them) I don’t think either of them particularly likes the Disney movie. I’ve seen both and I don’t care for either. Except for Olaf and Sven, of course. Everyone likes Olaf and Sven! He keeps trying to eat the snowman’s NOSE because it’s a CARROT! HA! ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/6 "2015-01-04T05:35:39Z")
My fanfiction crossover is Downton Abbey, Bertie Wooster and Doctor Who, with a little Miss Marple and Harry Potter thrown in for good measure. Frozen stands pretty good on its own. Imitation of Life is one of those movies about people that make me glad we live in an age of comic book movies. It’s not The Magnificent Ambersons, which is a movie that makes me wish there were more movies about people. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/7 "2015-01-04T05:50:14Z")
Somehow I’ve managed to not see Frozen yet, and I’ve seen bits and pieces of Downton Abbey but not liked it that much. I’ve heard about Imitation of Life, but I haven’t seen it either. Yeah, I don’t get out much. 😉 > [@Aquadementia](#): > > My fanfiction crossover is Downton Abbey, Bertie Wooster and Doctor Who, with a little Miss Marple and Harry Potter thrown in for good measure. That sounds . . . amazing. Right now I’m imagining Bertie, Jeeves, and the Doctor walking into the TARDIS and traveling to an Edwardian country house where a murder has just occurred. Let’s face it, they’d make _great_ companions. Well, Jeeves would, at any rate . . . ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/8 "2015-01-04T10:52:05Z")
I tolerated Downton Abbey for a couple of seasons, but when they killed off Matthew, I’d had enough. I can’t take it any more, but I never was a huge fan. I tried watching Frozen, but I don’t think I made it 20 minutes before turning it off - I must have missed something because I found it tedious. Never saw Imitation of Life. None of the answers fit for me, so I didn’t vote. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/9 "2015-01-04T22:59:26Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I’ve seen both and I don’t care for either. Except for Olaf and Sven, of course. Everyone likes Olaf and Sven! He keeps trying to eat the snowman’s NOSE because it’s a CARROT! HA! Heh, yeah, it’s scarcely drawing-room comedy. Probably what saves the Olaf/Sven stuff is the beauty of the animation (the art really has advanced since the first CGI movies came out). I find it interesting that the trailer and virtually all the marketing in advance of _Frozen_’s release focused on exactly that low-comedy stuff. I’ve read that there was a deliberate attempt to obscure the fact that there were Princesses in the movie, because Disney felt they had to get boys in the seats on opening weekend (to build momentum). And of course the conventional wisdom is that girls will agree to go to “boy movies” but boys won’t agree to go to “girl movies.” ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/10 "2015-01-04T23:23:36Z")
_ **Imitation of Life is** _ a masterpiece. _ **Frozen** _ is above average in competence of execution but its massive success baffles me. \*\*\*Downton Abby \*\*\*is watchable as high-end soap opera, but it’s no _ **Upstairs Downstairs** _. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/11 "2015-01-05T00:07:57Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > …\*\*\*Downton Abby \*\*\*is watchable as high-end soap opera, but it’s no _ **Upstairs Downstairs** _. Just addressing this part of your post: It would be interesting to know how much of DA’s success is due to the fandom-connecting effects of the Internet. _Upstairs Downstairs_ was very much a successful phenomenon in its day, but even then probably didn’t create the fervor that DA does now. Is this due to the particular qualities of the two shows? Or is it because today, people can share fan fiction, participate in conversations about the show with thousands of like-minded strangers at the touch of a button, and of course watch and re-watch episodes via online services (or DVDs)? The original UD (1971 to 1975) enjoyed none of those advantages; VHS was gaining a strong foothold in households, but affordable commercial tapes were a long way away (the market was in rentals). And chatting about the show was dependent on the odds of having fellow-fans among one’s family, friends, or co-workers. There was much less of the self-identification-as-part-of-a-tribe aspect of media fandom, pre-Internet (to be Captain Obvious). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/12 "2015-01-05T05:58:24Z")
I watched the first 2 seasons of _Downton Abbey_. Meh; it didn’t grab me. I loved \*Frozen \*greatly, and was further gladdened that they reproduced the characters in live action for _Once Upon a Time_. Never heard of _Imitation of Life_. I have not the remotest idea of what any of them are supposed to have to do with each other. I know nothing of any sort of fanfic either. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/13 "2015-01-05T20:56:36Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > My fanfiction crossover is Downton Abbey, Bertie Wooster and Doctor Who, with a little Miss Marple and Harry Potter thrown in for good measure. Sounds good to me. Certainly Jeeves and Marple would be the highest-IQ Companions yet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/14 "2015-01-05T21:03:55Z")
I’ve seen Imitation of Life many times, and love it. Hell, in the Rhymer household when I was growing up, we’d always stop whatever we were doing to watch that movie. And I also like Downtown Abbey. Frozen I haven’t seen. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/15 "2015-01-05T21:12:40Z")
No poll option fits me. I’ve seen _Frozen_ and enjoy it greatly. I’ve never watched _Downton Abbey_, and never even heard of _Imitation of Life_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/16 "2015-01-05T21:14:26Z")
I am not sure how to answer. I really liked Downton Abbey to start. But then it was obvious the Producer was just going to shit on anyone once they had a happy moment. So, not so much. I do like Frozen, but not a super-fan. Too much Olaf. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/17 "2015-01-05T23:59:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … I really liked Downton Abbey to start. But then it was obvious the Producer was just going to shit on anyone once they had a happy moment. So, not so much. … This points up one of the obvious differences among the three works: _Frozen_ and _Imitation of Life_ had the luxury of appearing as completed stories (in their 90 to 120 minutes, approximately). Whereas DA has the burden of staying interesting to audiences for hours (and years). (And, yes: DA does often seem rather predictable in its devices for keeping things ‘interesting,’ as in ‘characters always in turmoil and trouble.’) By the way: an accident of scheduling means that I’ll have only a few scant minutes each day for non-work Internetting during the next few days; thus my remaining annoyingly cagey on the topic of what I see as the commonalities of these works. I _will_ explain at length, once I have the time (soon). ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/18 "2015-01-13T00:14:45Z")
Okay, here’s the reveal (!): First, people find a certain type of escapist pleasure in each of the three (_Downton Abbey_, _Frozen_, and _Imitation of Life_), and that is the pleasure of identifying with characters who have plenty of resources, beautiful living spaces, and lovely possessions. Downton Abbey and Imitation of Life are particularly full of gorgeous clothes, jewels, spacious mansions, etc. But even Frozen, with its _'cartoon characters have only one (or a couple of) iconic outfits_’ convention, spends a fair bit of time letting us tour through the palatial halls and portrait-hung galleries of the gigantic castle that the princesses grow up in. (And of course there’s Elsa’s ice palace!) So there’s that. It’s the same impulse-to-identify that made hits of reality-television shows that showcase the home of the wealthy and celebrated (with the iconic “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous” making the theme as blatant as can be). _'Imagine what it would be like to have_…’ is, without doubt, a popular fantasy. Second, these three works have in common a philosophy that might be described as an implicit belief in the benevolence of those at the top. The basic idea: _‘Increasing wealth inequality is nothing to worry about, because those at the top are Kind, Warm, and Nurturing–all they want is to be allowed to take care of us!’_ I’m identifying two genres, here: 1. There are works of entertainment that vilify those at the top of the power hierarchy and assert the nobility and purity of those at the bottom. Many of these are more about adolescent psychology than about real-world power-politics (_The Hunger Games, Divergent_, etc. etc.). But this is an undeniably durable genre. Audiences never tire of seeing rich, thieving old Mr. Potter get his comeuppance when the common people of Bedford Falls rally to help virtuous George Bailey. (And so on.) 2. Then there is the genre of works that is, basically, the _opposite_ of the populist “rich people as villains” stories. These tell us that those at the top deserve to be at the top\*, and it’s really okay, because they are such wonderful people! All they want to do is make us ice rinks to skate on! And it’s a happy, easy life to be a servant to them–you have tons of time to sit around and gossip; you have spacious quarters, the chance to fall in love and marry, and of course the assurance that no matter what, the Lord and Lady will take care of you if you become too sick or too old to work. (All of that latter is a prominent feature of _Downton Abbey_; none of it was actually true, for 99.999% of British servants.) Both genres distort reality. The ‘people at the top are selfish, evil tyrants’ theme is no more reliably or universally true than is the ‘people at the top are altruists, who want nothing more than to tenderly care for those at the bottom’ theme. \*Possibly the purest expression of the ‘those at the top deserve to be at the top’ philosophy is the sub-genre of “switched at birth” stories. The child born of Noble parents will turn out to be, well, quite noble–despite being raised in poverty. And the child born of the underclass will turn out to be shifty or substandard or sickly (as in the recent SDMB Book Club selection _The Woman in White_). A modern treatment of this “nature versus nurture” theme that subverts the ‘birth will tell’ (nature over nurture) philosophy was the 1983 movie _Trading Places_, in which the underclass in question was racial as well as economic. (The subversion was that both the upperclass-born and underclass-born characters turned out to be smart, capable, and sympathetic.) A complex treatment of underclass/upperclass-born babies being switched was offered by Mark Twain in his controversial novel _Pudd’nhead Wilson_. Twain, sadly, did ultimately come down on the side of ‘birth will tell’ in creating the ‘switched’ characters. (And this post has gotten too long to go on adding examples.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-frozen-and-imitation-of-life-fans-in-common/708901/19 "2015-01-13T03:07:04Z")
I’m just a fan of _Downton Abbey_, and a big one. I’d like to see _Frozen_ someday but am in no particular hurry to do so; I’d never even heard of _Imitation of Life_ before.