# Downton Abbey (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 8, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966 "2010-11-08T22:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/201 "2011-02-02T19:56:18Z")
I think I got it. It goes something like this. Bates: You know Thomas. He likes to have a grumble. But I gather he cheered up when he saw the man. Bates makes a sly glance upward, but Grantham doesn’t seem to be looking at him and doesn’t respond. It’s all pretty sly, but it isn’t clear to what extent either man really knows or cares about Thomas’s predilections. I think Bridget’s right, though. He isn’t really “living openly” as a gay man, but realistically, people like Bates and Grantham couldn’t have gone through life without having had some kind of contact with gay men. It might be much more shocking to Cora and the daughters, perhaps. (simulpost) ---
**Author:** ![beartato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@beartato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beartato)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/202 "2011-02-02T20:03:09Z")
Yes, I wasn’t going to use the words “openly gay”, but needed to get across that Thomas wasn’t really a deeply closeted guy and that most of the staff seemed quite aware. I know that Bates and Lord Grantham knew each other in the army going back to the Boer War, but even just discussing the notion of a specific member of the staff having their eyes on a specific houseguest - whether those involved were male or female - seemed a bit out of place between a valet and the master of the house. They weren’t exactly army buddies sitting around having a pint. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/203 "2011-02-02T20:07:31Z")
Bates was his batman, I recall, which means that he was like his personal servant and constant companion. It wouldn’t be all that common for the relationship – while not equal – to become close and more frank than other military officer-enlisted relationships. It is said that Tolkien based the Frodo-Sam dynamic on this kind of relationship. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/204 "2011-02-02T20:37:06Z")
> [@The\_Scrivener](#): > > …re. “smart people” sleeping in separate beds – my guess is that’s more likely a use of a secondary meaning of “smart,” as fashionable, _de mode_, rather than intelligent. I think that meaning was well established by the 1920’s and possibly much earlier… Yes, of course that’s it. :smack: It would’ve been extrememly bizarre for Lady Mary to make that comment to her parents if she meant anything to do with sex or birth control. > [@The\_Scrivener](#): > > …And re. Thomas’ volunteering – was anybody else thinking that his motivation wasn’t just to avoid combat, but to enjoy the proximity to so many wounded or incapacitated young men? Men whose wounds he would help nurse, whose bodies he would help wash and dress, whose letters home he would help write…? I wager alot of middle and upper class young ladies had similiar notions in mind when they joined the VAD. Then they either ended up dealing with horrible carnage and gore they didn’t anticipate or dealing with sick people & old ladies in normal hospital s while the real nurses went abroad. (Lady Georgina did both on Upstairs, Downstairs). > [@acsenray](#): > > Bates was his batman, I recall, which means that he was like his personal servant and constant companion. It wouldn’t be all that common for the relationship – while not equal – to become close and more frank than other military officer-enlisted relationships. It is said that Tolkien based the Frodo-Sam dynamic on this kind of relationship. Officer-batman and master-valet are the exact same relationships. I would not be unusual at all for them to be making small talk like that, especially since Lord Grantham initiated it. Valets and lady’s maids were often regarded with a bit of suspicion downstairs because of their closeness with the master/mistress of the house, and falling somewhat outside the normal servant hierarchy (they answered _directly_ to their employer, not though the butler or housekeeper). ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/205 "2011-02-03T05:46:57Z")
> [@The\_Scrivener](#): > > And re. Thomas’ volunteering – was anybody else thinking that his motivation wasn’t just to avoid combat, but to enjoy the proximity to so many wounded or incapacitated young men? Men whose wounds he would help nurse, whose bodies he would help wash and dress, whose letters home he would help write…? Yeah, I had the exact same reaction as you. > [@acsenray](#): > > Isn’t it enough that he thought he was saving his own skin? Would you think the same if, say, Anna – a heterosexual woman – had embarked on a similar scheme? Yes, I do agree with **The Scrivener** , but not because Tom’s gay, and not because he’s a man either. It’s just that the Tom character gives off a distinct sexual predator vibe. In fact if he volunteers for that type of service and doesn’t display lecherous behavior towards his naked male patients next season, I’ll feel misled by the writers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/206 "2011-02-03T14:01:37Z")
I have no doubt that Thomas makes passes at attractive men wherever he sees a chance. (Is that really “predatory”?) But I can’t see his scheme as being motivated even secondarily by the idea that he’ll have more targets. Frankly, I don’t think he’s hard up and thinking that he doesn’t have enough opportunities. I have a feeling he does well enough wherever he is. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/207 "2011-02-03T14:29:13Z")
Thomas is looking for a sugar daddy. Might he have visions of some well bred chap with a minor wound whisking him away? Some girls who went into nursing started with similar fantasies. Certain visiting aristos may have been glad to use the services he offered, but most of them planned to make the marriages demanded by society. Afterward, I’m sure they would prefer using the occasional services of a professional to making the dreadful Thomas part of their household. Thomas will find horribly injured men requiring nursing. As the Western Front grows hungrier, I doubt an able bodied young man like Thomas will be allowed to stay safe in England. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/208 "2011-02-03T14:54:12Z")
> [@beartato](#): > > … > Bates: Apparently his man speaks no English so Mr Pamuk decided to (leave him alone? something him along? Can’t quite make it out)… I think it was, “leave him at home.” ---
**Author:** ![beartato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@beartato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beartato)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/209 "2011-02-03T18:33:11Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I think it was, “leave him at home.” Makes perfect sense, thank you. Another question: was there a stated reason that Anna and Lady Mary got Cora to help them move Pamuk, and not, say, the red-haired girl who is Anna’s roommate? I know the actual reason is “Because it’s essential to the plot that Cora knows Mary’s little secret”, but I’m wondering if they gave a reason they weren’t going to ask the roommate (Gwen, I think). I know she’s slight of build, but I can’t imagine Cora is much stronger. And they did throw the name Bates around, and William and Thomas, so it’s not like they weren’t considering members of the staff for help. But they just mention a few guys and then skip to the “Who has as much to lose as you?” question. Anna and Gwen seemed to trust each other and later, we see Sybil and Gwen obviously getting along quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/210 "2011-02-03T19:07:53Z")
> [@beartato](#): > > Another question: was there a stated reason that Anna and Lady Mary got Cora to help them move Pamuk, and not, say, the red-haired girl who is Anna’s roommate? I know the actual reason is “Because it’s essential to the plot that Cora knows Mary’s little secret”, but I’m wondering if they gave a reason they weren’t going to ask the roommate (Gwen, I think). They didn’t explicitly rule her out. But I think Anna was thinking ahead in trying to get the person with the most motivation to preserve the secret. Cora definitely has a lot more of such motivation than Gwen. ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/211 "2011-02-03T19:46:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I have no doubt that Thomas makes passes at attractive men wherever he sees a chance. (Is that really “predatory”?) But I can’t see his scheme as being motivated even secondarily by the idea that he’ll have more targets. Frankly, I don’t think he’s hard up and thinking that he doesn’t have enough opportunities. I have a feeling he does well enough wherever he is. I guess I see Thomas differently than you. I totally agree that being interested in or hitting on someone isn’t necessarily predatory, otherwise all the other cast members displaying romantic interests would also be predatory, and of course that’s ridiculous. Two different men can express an interest in me, saying the exact same words to me, and behaving in the same way. One could strike me as predatory while the other could just seem appropriately interested without raising alarms. My feeling is that the writers intentionally portrayed Thomas as more of a predator type. They could expand on that in the next season and it would seem like a logical development IMO, or they could just let it drop off the radar. And I don’t actually hope to convince you to see Thomas the way that I do, just meant to say that **The Scrivener** wasn’t the only one with that pov, and to offer some thoughts as to why I felt the same. But speaking of “predatory,” did anyone else (besides me), think that Pamuk picked up on Thomas’ gayness and decided to set a trap so he could exploit and blackmail Thomas? Under the circumstances I just can’t imagine a valet making the first move like that. I think Pamuk was intentionally throwing out subtle hints, pretending to be also gay, offering sly invitations for Thomas to make a move, and then Thomas walked right into the trap. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/212 "2011-02-03T19:54:43Z")
I do wonder at Thomas making the first move–especially on one of “his betters.” Perhaps Pamuk just focused that dark-eyed gaze on him… ---
**Author:** ![beartato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@beartato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beartato)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/213 "2011-02-03T20:03:18Z")
> [@raindrop](#): > > But speaking of “predatory,” did anyone else (besides me), think that Pamuk picked up on Thomas’ gayness and decided to set a trap so he could exploit and blackmail Thomas? Under the circumstances I just can’t imagine a valet making the first move like that. I think Pamuk was intentionally throwing out subtle hints, pretending to be also gay, offering sly invitations for Thomas to make a move, and then Thomas walked right into the trap. Thoughts? I certainly thought it was written that way, since Pamuk didn’t seem to need that long to turn the situation right around. “How dare you! Oh, now that you owe me one, here’s what you’re going to do for me…” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/214 "2011-02-04T02:28:43Z")
I didn’t get a sexual predator vibe from Thomas at all. We’ve seen him with exactly 2 men. The Duke, with whom he’d been having an affair and didn’t attempt blackmail until after he was spurned, and Mr Pamuk who very clearly led him on hoping to get enought dirt to blackmail him into taking him to Lady Mary’s room. Neither time did Thomas seem all that predatory. He might be a jerk, but I don’t see him molesting helpless wounded soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/215 "2011-02-04T02:36:04Z")
What about when he asked Daisy out? I think he was definitely devoid of conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/216 "2011-02-04T03:15:55Z")
That wasn’t sexual predation. That was just being an asshole and cockblocking William. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/217 "2011-02-04T04:46:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That wasn’t sexual predation. That was just being an asshole and cockblocking William. Agreed. He _might_ be a sexual predator, but I don’t see enough evidence of it yet. He’s just a jerk, schemer and thief who happens to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/218 "2011-02-05T04:20:35Z")
I was re-watching the last episode and noticed a sign identifying the hospital where Mrs. Patmore had her cataract surgery was marked as “Moorfields Eye Hospital.” [http://www.moorfields.nhs.uk/Home](http://www.moorfields.nhs.uk/Home) ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/219 "2011-02-15T14:55:36Z")
I think Pamook did set up Thomas and I was wondering, too, if Thomas poisoned him. I guess not since that potential storyline went nowhere afterwards. Pamook had a reputation as a ladies man and was probably used to finding/manipulating an ally in the households he visited to get at the ladies. He sure was a fast actor in this household! He wasted no time in selecting Mary as his target. Pamook left his butler in London. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/220 "2011-02-15T15:07:20Z")
_Downton Abbey_ is now available via Netflix streaming. It’s in the original 7-episode format as shown in the UK, except without commercials. Watched #1 last night; there are a few very brief bits that had been excised for the US market. (The original production company made the edits.) Mainly–if you already have Netflix streaming, it’s so easy to watch… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966.md?page=12)