# Downton Abbey (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 8, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966 "2010-11-08T22:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/101 "2011-01-24T20:47:34Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Oh, yes, I know. I was just wondering about the actual baby part. If they had any suspicion that she might be pregnant, it would be off to New York or somewhere equally remote from high society for a D&C. They would not be waiting around for calamity to befall them. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/102 "2011-01-24T21:50:22Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Lady Grantham (Mrs Crawley is Matthew’s mother) :smack: I can’t keep the names straight in this one. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > His wife can’t be with another man (at least in any way acceptable to Bates) as long as he’s alive. Divorce was only an option for rich. Another :smack: . I meant that he wanted the maid (Anne? Anna?) to find a better husband. . . ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/103 "2011-01-24T22:14:55Z")
I still find it hard to believe Edith could do something so reckless. If Mary were shamed, wouldn’t all the girls be ruined? Like in Pride and Prejudice, or had times changed enough? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/104 "2011-01-24T22:48:58Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If they had any suspicion that she might be pregnant, it would be off to New York or somewhere equally remote from high society for a D&C. They would not be waiting around for calamity to befall them. Even having Lady Grantham go to NYC with her, then trying to pass the baby off as a younger sibling isn’t a viable option. Mr Pamuk didn’t exactly look English. Plus if it turned out to be a boy it’d create all sorts of problems. But she isn’t pregnant so it’s all moot. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/105 "2011-01-24T22:49:29Z")
I, too, find it hard to believe that Edith would throw a bad light upon her own name. Just as I find it hard to believe that Mary would be so taken with the Turk in just a weekend that she’d find it impossible to love again. Will anyone ever figure out that Thomas did Mr. Pamuk in? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/106 "2011-01-24T22:53:06Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Even having Lady Grantham go to NYC with her, then trying to pass the baby off as a younger sibling isn’t a viable option. Mr Pamuk didn’t exactly look English. Plus if it turned out to be a boy it’d create all sorts of problems. But she isn’t pregnant so it’s all moot. I was suggesting that they would have it aborted. ---
**Author:** ![Southpaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@Southpaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southpaw)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/107 "2011-01-24T23:21:30Z")
I’m wondering if Edith had no intention of actually mailing the letter and instead is going to “accidentally” leave it on her dressing table so that Mary can find it. Edith seems to be P/A enough to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/108 "2011-01-25T00:47:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I think it’s pretty clear that penetration occurred and that Pamuk expired in the throes of climax. Mary refers to him fairly clearly as her “lover.” However, for the purposes of society at large, it’s enough that Mary let him into her room and that he died undressed in her bed. No confirmation of further specifics is necessary. I was taking care of some dishes while that episode was on and didn’t catch all the dialogue, but didn’t Pamuk say something to Mary about how she’d still be a virgin when she got married? I guess he may have just meant she could claim to be a virgin, but I had taken it to mean that he had enough sexual experience to know how to give them both a good time while still leaving her a “technical virgin”. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/109 "2011-01-25T01:21:53Z")
> [@Southpaw](#): > > I’m wondering if Edith had no intention of actually mailing the letter and instead is going to “accidentally” leave it on her dressing table so that Mary can find it. Edith seems to be P/A enough to do that. Good point. I wonter it it’ll accidentally get mailed too. Maybe somehow one of the maids get’s it mixed up with the other letters that are supposed to be put in the mailbox. Would Downton Abbey even have mail delivery or would everything need to be sent to the village post office? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/110 "2011-01-25T05:13:58Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > They’re just of similar spirit and work well together. Heh. I consider them the Abbey’s Guild of Backstabbing Evil. My theory is that Bates, as a good Edwardian Irish Catholic fellow, is still married to an unpleasant, scandalous or crazy woman, and would never dream of a divorce. Much as he yearns for the nice maid, he’s too honorable to give her false hope. But that scene on the country road was heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/111 "2011-01-25T05:27:38Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I was taking care of some dishes while that episode was on and didn’t catch all the dialogue, but didn’t Pamuk say something to Mary about how she’d still be a virgin when she got married? I guess he may have just meant she could claim to be a virgin, but I had taken it to mean that he had enough sexual experience to know how to give them both a good time while still leaving her a “technical virgin”. I admit I have no direct experiance with hetero-sex, but weren’t they in the wrong position for her to remain “a technical vigin”? Mary was lying prone on the bed and he was in the missionary position and her legs were flat on the bed (not spear apart or wrapped around him) to which I think would make one point of entry rather difficult. She did look like she was getting into it so it’s possible she just said to hell with staying a virgin. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > …Are O’Brien and Thomas related? They act toward each other like mother-son. That’s what I thought, but then he made that comment about his father being a clockmaker and O’Brien reacted like it was new information. If he is her son then he doesn’t know it. > [@acsenray](#): > > I was suggesting that they would have it aborted. I know, I was pointing out why another popular option for dealing with a young lady’s unwanted pregnancy wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/112 "2011-01-25T05:44:29Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Mary was lying prone on the bed and he was in the missionary position and her legs were flat on the bed (not spear apart or wrapped around him) to which I think would make one point of entry rather difficult. Not necessarily, but regardless, the scene cut away to her getting the maid. Presumably quite a bit more happened in between. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/113 "2011-01-25T18:20:44Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I, too, find it hard to believe that Edith would throw a bad light upon her own name. Just as I find it hard to believe that Mary would be so taken with the Turk in just a weekend that she’d find it impossible to love again. > > Will anyone ever figure out that Thomas did Mr. Pamuk in? Say what, now? Thomas did Mr. Pamuk in? I didn’t see that… From the previews it looked to me like Edith’s letter did get sent. I also wonder how she would not be shamed along with the rest of the family if the allegations were public. I think Bates feels he cannot marry anyone because of his tenuous employment situation. He’s employed only because of the loyalty of Grantham. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/114 "2011-01-25T18:25:18Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Will anyone ever figure out that Thomas did Mr. Pamuk in? What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/115 "2011-01-25T19:44:35Z")
Great! Now I’m going to have to go and re-watch it. There was a scene after Mr. Pamuk’s death between the evil O’Brien and Thomas. I thought that it was hinted that Thomas poisoned O’Brien in order to retaliate against him for threatening to ruin him. I’ll get back to you after I re-watch the scene. My house is NEVER going to get clean at this rate! ETA: I am watching the uncut version. It’s possible that this scene wasn’t on the PBS version. It’s also possible that I imagined it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/116 "2011-01-25T19:54:21Z")
Meant to ask… _best-case scenario_, would the cook be given a pension by the Earl and a little cottage somewhere on the estate if she goes totally blind? Might she even be allowed to stay in the Abbey? I know that, in 1913, the worst-case scenario is she’s sacked and told to begone, penniless. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/117 "2011-01-25T19:58:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Meant to ask… _best-case scenario_, would the cook be given a pension by the Earl and a little cottage somewhere on the estate if she goes totally blind? Might she even be allowed to stay in the Abbey? > > I know that, in 1913, the worst-case scenario is she’s sacked and told to begone, penniless. Which begs the question: What happens to these workers when they get too old to work in the estate? Were they given a pension? Did the owners care for them until they croak? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/118 "2011-01-25T19:58:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Meant to ask… _best-case scenario_, would the cook be given a pension by the Earl and a little cottage somewhere on the estate if she goes totally blind? Might she even be allowed to stay in the Abbey? It’s his money and his estate. He can use it how he wants, so long as he’s alive. His successors aren’t necessarily obliged to follow his lead, however. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/119 "2011-01-25T20:38:51Z")
Okay, I went back and watched the scenes immediately after Pamuk’s death. I misinterpreted what happened. In the kitchen, Thomas said a few times that Mr. Pamuk had lived every day as if it was his last. The staff, especially Daisy and O’Brien, were taken aback to hear this comment. (Daisy because she had witnessed the women moving the body.) O’Brien whispered to him that she’d be asking him to explain what he meant later. On first watch, I wondered if Thomas was hinting that he’d done in Mr. Pamuk because Mr. Pamuk had threatened him. Later, when they were smoking outside, O’Brien questioned him about it. At the very end, he said he didn’t want to get into any trouble over this and she said assured him that she’d keep his secret. And because I wasn’t paying that much attention, I thought he’d confessed to killing him – poisoning him perhaps. After all, he had the motive, he’s evil, and it was rather convenient how Pamuk ended up dead shortly after threatening Thomas. But upon second watch, he was confessing to O’Brien that he’d escorted Pamuk to Mary’s room and that Pamuk was alive and well last time he saw him. They were wondering how he got back into his room. Which is still rather odd because Thomas didn’t discover the body until the next morning, and surely they didn’t expect him to lounge around in Mary’s bed all night. He had no idea that Daisy saw the women carrying a body, so why would they not simply assume that Pamuk returned to his room after his and Mary’s liaison? :dubious: Perhaps I’m making him out to be far more nefarious than he is, but I’m not so sure he’s completely innocent in Pamuk’s death. However, it certainly wasn’t made clear that he did, so sorry for the red herring. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966/120 "2011-01-25T21:27:16Z")
Re the scene between Bates and Anna on the road: when Anna asked him if he was married, Bates said something like, “I have been married yes, but…” and then something I can’t remember, but I thought it was something like, “but that’s not the obstacle” or “that doesn’t have anything to do with why I’m not free.” Could someone who has dvr’d\* this, check out that scene please? \* \*I dvr You dvr He dvrs We dvr You dvr They dvr I have dvr’d, etc. I will have dvr’d, etc. I will have been about to dvr, etc. \* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-open-spoilers/559966.md?page=7)