# Downton Abbey S3 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791 "2013-01-02T01:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/421 "2013-01-28T04:36:32Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > In some ways the most moving scene was watching Thomas cry. He’s not moved by much so to see him react to her death said volumes about her fundamental goodness. Yes, good point - that was potent stuff. And I thought the Dowager Countess’s reaction was appropriate. She was taking the news hard. Nowadays, could anything have been done for Sibyl _after_ the delivery, once she went into fits, assuming everything else earlier unfolded as it did? Are there drugs or other treatment(s) available today that would’ve made a difference? Another thought: Couldn’t Mrs. Crawley just have written a nice recommendation letter for the ex-prostitute, given her enough money to go to another town or village where no one knew her, and let her make a fresh start there? I was halfway through the episode before I recognized Sir Philip, the stuffshirt doctor from London - the actor previously played the evil director of the British secret police in _V for Vendetta_. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/422 "2013-01-28T04:46:02Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Another thought: Couldn’t Mrs. Crawley just have written a nice recommendation letter for the ex-prostitute, given her enough money to go to another town or village where no one knew her, and let her make a fresh start there? Great idea, but Mrs. Crawley wants a more active role. She won’t throw money at a problem – she wants to do something. I feel bad for misjudging her last week – she did put her money where her mouth is. It looked like she enjoyed putting Mrs. Bird in her place. Could Matthew be more of a wimp? He let Murray take all the blame for talking business, when it was Matthew’s idea, and Murray was obviously uncomfortable with it. Anyone think Mary’s even less likely to want to be pregnant now? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/423 "2013-01-28T04:54:49Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I agree that Violet was utterly devastated and behaved exactly as an aristocrat would. When she was walking across the room, I thought she was going to collapse. I also thought that was a really powerful scene. > [@](#): > > I wanted Cora to put her foot down and insist Sibyl go to the hospital. If she had done that, a) what would Robert have done? and b) would the servants have obeyed her if Robert opposed her? But surely he wouldn’t have opposed her. When Cora said, “I’d have taken her an hour ago,” I wanted to scream. I guess there was no way to do an emergency c-section at the house? After all, they’ve been done since the time of…well…Caesar. I believe the Romans only resorted to caesarian sections when the mother was already dead. Historically they were generally considered a last resort attempt to save the baby when there was little chance the mother would pull through. As Dr. Clarkson said, there was also no guarantee that even a hospital C-section would have saved Sybil. As we saw, it’s possible for a woman to die of eclampsia after the baby has been safely delivered. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > In some ways the most moving scene was watching Thomas cry. He’s not moved by much so to see him react to her death said volumes about her fundamental goodness. Yeah, I think this is only the second time we’ve seen any sign that Thomas is even capable of feeling sympathy for another person. The first time was with the blind soldier last season, but that guy had been in a pitiable condition the entire time Thomas knew him and Thomas was also attracted to him. Thomas had no special reason to care about Lady Sybil’s well-being other than that she’d been kind to him. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/424 "2013-01-28T04:59:03Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] {snip}Nowadays, could anything have been done for Sibyl _after_ the delivery…Are there drugs or other treatment(s) available today that would’ve made a difference? Another thought: Couldn’t Mrs. Crawley just have written a nice recommendation letter for the ex-prostitute, given her enough money to go to another town or village where no one knew her, and let her make a fresh start there? {snip} [/QUOTE] Excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on pre-eclampsia: “_The only known treatments for eclampsia or advancing pre-eclampsia are abortion or delivery, either by labor induction or Caesarean section. However, post-partum pre-eclampsia may occur up to six weeks following delivery even if symptoms were not present during the pregnancy. Post-partum pre-eclampsia is dangerous to the health of the mother since she may ignore or dismiss symptoms as simple post-delivery headaches and edema. Hypertension can sometimes be controlled with anti-hypertensive medication, but any effect this might have on the progress of the underlying disease is unknown._” Source: [Pre-eclampsia - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-eclampsia) Mrs. Crawley wanted to train Edith to be more than a maid. Edith will earn much more as a housekeeper or “plain cook” than as a junior house maid. @ **AuntiePam** : while I understand why it was a good idea for Matthew to take advantage of Murray’s presence to speak to him, it was inappropriate to do so without Lord G present. Since Lord G. had more pressing matters to deal with, it was insensitive and tactless for M to have discussed with Murray–at that time–changes in managing the estate. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/425 "2013-01-28T06:42:03Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > As soon as I heard them talking about her symptoms, I was thinking, “That’s pre-eclampsia.” And I’m not a doctor. I’m not a doctor, either. But I have watched a ton of Very Special Episodes of television (including “Love’s Labor Lost” on ER) where eclampsia is the culprit, which is something that those people had not done. So, I do excuse them for not going straight to the right answer. I don’t excuse the doctor’s pride getting in the way of a diagnosis. (Also, having seen so many episodes of medical tv, I was surprised at both doctors just standing there in the background while she was seizing. I understand that for dramatic camerawork reasons, you want Cora and Tom right next to her, but you’d think at least one of the doctors might have moved somewhere or have tried to say something) The Bates story has dragged on too long. The new complications are there for complication’s sake rather than because they make narrative sense. And Mary needs to make a choice as to whether she wants to keep the estate or whether she wants to let her father run it into the ground. She cannot keep it and let him keep running it. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/426 "2013-01-28T08:02:47Z")
With all this talk of babies, another possible twist occurs to me: Even IF M&M have a son, it doesn’t necessarily mean it will inherit Downton Abbey and the title, since those go down through the male heirs. If Robert dies, it goes to Matthew and then down to his male heirs, which would be his son. But if Matthew dies before Robert does, then it all goes to whatever cousin is next in line. So… is Mary still hedging her bets? There she could be with a dozen children, and if Matthew pops off first she and they are out in the cold. ---
**Author:** ![gwendee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@gwendee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gwendee)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/427 "2013-01-28T08:50:56Z")
Any chance Robert will force Branson to give up the baby and M&M will adopt him? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/428 "2013-01-28T08:52:00Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > …But if Matthew dies before Robert does, then it all goes to whatever cousin is next in line… Nope. If Matthew dies leaving a male heir that boy would take Matthew’s place in the succession. The one and only way Matthew & son could be displaced is if Lord Grantham had a son. Given that Cora is in her 50s either she would need to die or divorce Robert who would then need to remarry a younger, fertile woman, and have a son. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/429 "2013-01-28T11:25:16Z")
I thought one of the nicest little bits of acting was Mrs. Bird’s expression when she realized Mrs. C. was calling her bluff and would not get rid of Edith. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/430 "2013-01-28T12:12:04Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Anyone think Mary’s even less likely to want to be pregnant now? I haven’t gotten the impression that Mary doesn’t want to get pregnant.\* I think it may be hard for us to understand the position Mrs. Bird was put in. Her own good name was being put into jeopardy. Back at the estate, many of the servants we are supposed to be sympathetic with are having the same reaction. \*According to Wikipedia, months of trying without getting pregnant has a strong protective effect against pre-eclampsia although I doubt that connection was known back then. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/431 "2013-01-28T12:13:06Z")
In Mrs. Bird’s defense, I don’t really see that she had a choice there. I’m not entirely sure what Mrs. Crawley is thinking, employing a prostitute as a servant, but it doesn’t give the household a good reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/432 "2013-01-28T12:18:05Z")
> [@gwendee](#): > > Any chance Robert will force Branson to give up the baby and M&M will adopt him? Adoptive children could not inherit titles in the UK. They still can’t… ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/433 "2013-01-28T12:34:01Z")
I think its silly to cruticize the docs flr not realizing the danger sooner. Frankly I was impressed the doctors of that time knew of pre-e and knew to test the urine for protein all! One hallmark is high bp, which they didn’t seem able to test for then. I hardly blame them for not recognizing a disease that was extremely poorly understood and limited treatments available for, even today. We can’t forget how really primitive medicine was in the 1920s. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/434 "2013-01-28T12:36:36Z")
Interesting about eclampsia - almost like an allergic reaction against the father’s DNA. I know it’s a very different society, but I just can’t sympathize with the attitude that prostitution is somehow virulently contagious. Don’t let any woman enter that house - she’ll surely start blowing passersby for a shilling on her way out the gate! (Is a shilling way too much? Penny? Thrupence? Whatever.) I could actually understand a discreet, “Let’s not send any footmen over on errands for a while” better. But yeah, the dumbest thing is that Ethel (\*\*Ethel \*\*is the fallen housemaid, \*\*Edith \*\*is the spinster columnist. I know, I have to pause each time I go to use their names to make sure I get it right) refused to lie about her previous job. Hell, in an interview _I’m_ going to gloss over some aspects of how and why I left my last job, which was perfectly legitimate. Has she been taking lessons from Bates or something? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/435 "2013-01-28T12:50:51Z")
The causes of pre-eclampsia/eclampsia (although there are theories)\* are unknown even today, so let’s not be too hard on the docs. Well, the Harley Street knighted one WAS an ass, but Robert acted exactly as one would expect an Earl to act. The surprise was Dr Clarkson, who stood his ground. And there is no reason for the docs (or the nurse) to intervene while Sybil seized. Dr Clarkson was correct: there was nothing they could do. Time was a tongue depressor was inserted into the seizing person’s mouth, but that wouldn’t have made for dramatic TV (and it would have looked silly-plus, it did not good). Lastly, hospitals at that time were NOT seen as places of rescue or positive outcomes. One went to the hospital to die or because one was too poor to have a doctor make a house call. Surgery wasn’t much more than in its infancy, given that antibiotics weren’t discovered yet, germ theory not well understood or prominent in clinical practice, and anesthesia fairly primitive as well. I liked that Dr Clarkson refused to guarantee anything regarding outcome for baby or mother. We need a bit more of that today–there are NO guarantees in medicine. I thought that if the baby was a boy, it would act as pressure on M&M. NOT because of the inheritance, but because there’s be this small boy running around, reminding Mary (and Matthew) that they don’t have one of their own. Re the whore as a servant. Prevalent Victorian thinking: the reputation of one effects the rep of all in a house. No “good Christian” woman would shelter a woman of ill repute. It may be Edwardian times, but some of that thinking still holds today (how many people today hire ex-cons? for example). \*Hell, we still don’t know the mechanism that initiates labor. Babies still come when they come, despite the ridiculous number of C-secxns done for either the doc’s convenience or the mother’s. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/436 "2013-01-28T13:02:45Z")
Sir Phillip was such a pompous ass. Lord Grantham’s reasoning was interesting…believe the doctor that is certain, and telling you what you want to hear, rather than the one that is aware of his limitations and honest about them…and is so Lacking in social graces that he would mention urine in polite company…don’t disgust me with evidence. Made me think of some of the climate change deniers I have heard. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/437 "2013-01-28T13:32:34Z")
Count me among the folks who thought the Dowager was very emotional, for a person of her station. She looked devastated, yet resolved to be strong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/438 "2013-01-28T13:46:35Z")
Frankly, I’m tired of Robert and his prissiness, too delicate to hear the doctor talk about his daughter’s pregnancy, thinking that his mother can’t tolerate the mention of urine. And now it’s turns out that he’s been mismanaging the estate, which really is his sole actual job and now he’s sunk the fortunes of like three families into the utter folly that is his life. And to top it off he wouldn’t take his daughter to the hospital because it would have hurt Sir Ronal Merrick’s feelings. Robert is the world’s supreme idiot but somehow history and birth have granted him more money and comfort than anyone could dream of. And every decision he makes is somehow related to preventing women from doing what they want. And it turns out that on top of that he’s an anti-Catholic bigot. The one thing that got him upset was Branson and Sybil’s separate flight from Ireland, which was the best plan they could have managed. God what an idiot. I hate him. And I think I hate Mary too. The whole lot of them are parasites on society. I want Branson to tell him that if Geantham had owned property in Ireland, he’d have set fire to it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/439 "2013-01-28T13:49:46Z")
How I managed to avoid spoilers for the program, given that I work for a PBS station in marketing, I’ll never know but GOD IN HEAVEN I was _bawling_ during the whole Sybil scene and I rarely cry at TV any more! (Well, I know how I avoided it; I was out of the office on Friday and didn’t read the email from presenting station WGBH with handy links to the pre-eclampisa foundation.) Even though I could see where things were headed when they mentioned swelling and a small baby, I was positive they were just going to scare the shit out of us and Sybil would be fine. :: shakes fist at Fellowes:: I also choked up when Maggie Smith walked brokenly into Downton. She may be the most human character left! Well of course Mrs. Crawley. You go, er, girl. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/440 "2013-01-28T14:00:58Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yes, good point - that was potent stuff. And I thought the Dowager Countess’s reaction was appropriate. She was taking the news hard. Her three second moment with Carson and obvious feebleness afterward was very striking, though it’s also believable the same character would take the time to don appropriate mourning wear. (Wardrobe is like a combination religion and costume party to this family.) Also agree that seeing Thomas cry was surprisingly moving and that Elizabeth McGovern gave an “all appropriate award nominations” worthy performance throughout the episode. Perhaps next week her mother will return for the funeral. When Cora has a near breakdown and screams how furious she is, Mrs. Crawley will grab her mom and say “Hit Ouiser!” to everybody’s confusion. More likely though she’ll settle for hitting Robert, who needs it; this entire season seems to have exposing him as an “arrogant incompetent twit who mistakes his birth station with infallibility” as an underlying theme. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791.md?page=23)