# Downton Abbey S3 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791 "2013-01-02T01:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/601 "2013-02-04T18:32:05Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I can’t answer the rest, but my sense is that the cellmate and the guard resent Bates for his privileged position. (Yes, he is/was a servant, but he’s a servant to a high-ranking person and therefore relatively lucky.) The guard and the cellmate had something illegal going on that Bates oversaw. Bates didn’t give a shit but they were concerned that he would rat them out so they wanted to get him out of the way. Bates was able to thwart that in a way that got them into trouble so the coerced the ex-wife’s friend to get revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/602 "2013-02-04T18:50:19Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > She saw her making the pie crust after Mr. Bates had left so he couldn’t have poisoned the pie. > > She poisoned herself knowing that Bates would get blamed. Ah, OK, that works. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > While my preference is to run away from that subplot and never look back, that is only one of many elements that I just never understood. Additional questions: why did the cell mate and guard in particular have it out for Bates? Just the one initial confrontation that they had? That doesn’t seem like motivation for such a concerted conspiracy to affect Bates. > … No help for the rest, but I think the conspiracy against Bates goes back to the newspaperman, Sir Richard(?). For some reason, he decided that the former Mrs. Bates is too crazy to be trusted not break the contract. Instead of waiting her out and destroying her with contract law; he has her killed in a way that implicates Mr. Bates, partly out of not wanting to be made to look foolish and partly as an backhanded way of getting back at the Granthams. The machinations to keep Bates in jail are all at his behest. Of course, this is based mostly on my desire to see that cool guy from Game of Thrones on Downton Abbey again. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/603 "2013-02-04T19:11:57Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > No help for the rest, but I think the conspiracy against Bates goes back to the newspaperman, Sir Richard(?). For some reason, he decided that the former Mrs. Bates is too crazy to be trusted not break the contract. Instead of waiting her out and destroying her with contract law; _ **he has her killed** _ in a way that implicates Mr. Bates, partly out of not wanting to be made to look foolish and partly as an backhanded way of getting back at the Granthams. The machinations to keep Bates in jail are all at his behest. I proposed this theory a couple of time upthread: > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I think the newspaper guy hired someone to kill Vera. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I tell ya, it was the newspaper mogul who had her killed. It’s you and me, FM. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/604 "2013-02-04T19:18:20Z")
I enoyed this episode very much, even though the Bates imprisonment seems to be getting wrapped up waaaaay too quickly given how long it’s dragged on. I like that the Earl is being shown as much more of a multidimensional character this season. He’s previously been a stuffy but almost-entirely-admirable guy, but now we’re seeing him as a poor manager, a dumb investor, bigoted, peevish, snobby and self-righteous. Feet of clay make him a lot more interesting IMHO. I think less of the doctor now that he’s done the Dowager Countess’s bidding in downplaying Sybil’s chances of surviving with a ceasarian. The Dowager mentioned her friend the Duchess of Norfolk being “more Catholic than the Pope,” and the dukes of Norfolk have indeed been historically Catholic: [Duke of Norfolk - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Norfolk) > [@hajario](#): > > During all of the other exercise scenes there were guards close by who noticed and reprimanded if someone whispered too loud. This time they didn’t notice Bates pulling someone out of line and threatening him at knifepoint. Yeah, the other guards were certainly _conveniently_ distracted at that point. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Possibly my favorite exchange of the series. That was good. I also liked the new kitchen maid’s comment, “A cat may look at a king!” and Mrs. Patmore’s rejoinder, “Well, maybe, but not at a cook!” Mrs. Hughes’s eyeroll, heading out the door after Carson criticizes her for having no scruples about consorting with prostitutes, was priceless. Cora’s - and the other women’s - standing up to Robert and insisting on remaining at the meal with Mrs. Crawley was a great scene. Predictions: Daisy has a May-December marriage with her father-in-law; Tom gets his daughter baptized Catholic, but leaves her to be raised by Matthew and Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/605 "2013-02-04T19:36:11Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I proposed this theory a couple of time upthread: > > It’s you and me, FM. Don’t know how I missed that. I hope a certain Mr. Fellowes is listening. We pay your castle mortgage, dude, hook us up! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/606 "2013-02-04T19:36:12Z")
I wondered if Daisy would get together with her FIL. He seems like a very nice guy. I’d date him. I loved Mrs. Patmore’s comment: “You’re all in love with the wrong people!” A Shakespearean comedy motif. I thought Violet bringing in the doctor was the right thing to do. In fact, a c-section probably would not have saved Sybil, and that needed to be made clear to Cora. Robert was still wrong in the way he handled the two doctors, giving greater weight to the specialist’s opinion just because of his status. But the facts of Sybil’s condition needed to be understood by all. Violet’s a pistol. ---
**Author:** ![brownMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@brownMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownMouse)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/607 "2013-02-04T19:43:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > … but now we’re seeing him as a poor manager, a dumb investor, bigoted, peevish, snobby and self-righteous. I think he’s starting to see himself like this, too, and it’s scaring the hell out him – making him try to grasp and control even more forcefully than ever, to shake that vision. It’ll be interesting to see if/how he reconciles with himself. “Yes, I’m a poor manager, a dumb investor, bigoted, peevish, snobby and sel-righteous, but I’m OK and I can learn how to grow and evolve with the help of those around me.” OK, yeah, I don’t see him saying that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/608 "2013-02-04T19:44:12Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I wondered if Daisy would get together with her FIL. He seems like a very nice guy. I’d date him. > > I loved Mrs. Patmore’s comment: “You’re all in love with the wrong people!” A Shakespearean comedy motif. > > I thought Violet bringing in the doctor was the right thing to do. In fact, a c-section probably would not have saved Sybil, and that needed to be made clear to Cora. Robert was still wrong in the way he handled the two doctors, giving greater weight to the specialist’s opinion just because of his status. But the facts of Sybil’s condition needed to be understood by all. Violet’s a pistol. Mrs. Patmore is easily one of my favorite characters on the show. She’s hardworking and full of common sense. Her relationship with Daisy is very knowing and sweet. But I disagree with you on Violet’s handing of Robert. I think Violet’s babying him. Someone needs to have a long talk with her son about his poor decision making. Instead she practically commanded the doctor to lie to him so he could feel better about his lapse in judgement. Violet may be the only one who can get away with doing so at this point. I would like to see her try. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/609 "2013-02-04T19:45:18Z")
> [@freckafree](#): > > I loved all the innocuous things James said that Tom was clearly interpreting as a signal that he (James) was receptive – like the remark about orthodoxy and his comment about not having a girl. Thomas is _extremely_ lonely and desperate for any kind of affection. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > …Considering that Cora’s mom is Mrs. Levinson I’m really surprised the show hasn’t made more of anti-semitism… Isadore Levinson was most likely a Jew who converted to Christianity (ala Benhamin Disraeli), and gave Cora a big enough dowry that the Crawleys were willing to overlook anything. > [@Acsenray](#): > > …Customarily, I believe they would be given their own little cottage on the estate or in the village. A married couple wouldn’t be permitted to stay together in servants’ quarters in the house. Yep, their own cottage and Anna would retire if & when she get’s pregnant. Married servants were rare, married female servants were pretty much unheard of. Only upper servants (like bulters & valets) were allowed to marry, and were often still required to live in the house and only saw their families on their days off. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > …Is the system of justice so fragile that it can go from nearly enacting the death penalty to complete exoneration simply by a witness remembering what time of day someone was making a pie? Bates was convicted of murder; that was an _automatic_ death sentence in 1920. Notice how the judge immediatly put his black cap on and sentenced him to hang? He did mange to get it commuted pretty quickly though; which was normal. Most death sentence did get commuted by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/610 "2013-02-04T19:50:43Z")
BTW, the Earl referred to having his granddaughter become a “left-footer” - never heard of that phrase before, but a little Googling reveals that it was pejorative slang for Catholics, supposedly because Protestant farmers set their right foot on their shovels as they began to dig, while Catholics did so with their left! Yes, well, no one ever said bigotry had to make sense… ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/611 "2013-02-04T19:54:09Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > But I disagree with you on Violet’s handing of Robert. I think Violet’s babying him. Someone needs to have a long talk with her son about his poor decision making. Instead she practically commanded the doctor to lie to him so he could feel better about his lapse in judgement. Violet may be the only one who can get away with doing so at this point. I would like to see her try. The doctor didn’t lie. Sybil’s chances, in fact, were very very slight, even with the c-section. Violet had him shift the emphasis from the specialist’s arrogance and asshole-ism to the actual medical facts. In this, Violet was being realistic, practical, and aware of the need to deal with reality is it is, not as she wished it would be. If she had not done this, Robert and Cora might have been stuck at this fruitless impasse for the rest of their lives. Why would that be a good thing. This is why she handles Robert the way she does. What would be the point of raking him over the coals about decision-making? What practical good could possibly come from that? EVENTS and other family members are slapping him in the face with his mistakes. Violet is, above all, a realist. ---
**Author:** ![brownMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@brownMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownMouse)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/612 "2013-02-04T19:54:13Z")
Dr. Clarkson: I will not lie to suit the situation! (or words to that effect) Violet: (offended) Have we nothing in common, then?!? _Loved_ that. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/613 "2013-02-04T19:56:22Z")
> [@brownMouse](#): > > Dr. Clarkson: I will not lie to suit the situation! (or words to that effect) > Violet: (offended) Have we nothing in common, then?!? > > _Loved_ that. I think that exchange gives the impression that she was asking him to tell an out-and-out, bold-faced lie. But Sybil probably would have died. That was not a lie. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/614 "2013-02-04T19:58:24Z")
And in retrospect Clarkson’s presence at the birth was pointless. Had he not been there Sybil still would have died, and it would’ve been just as traumatic for the family. The only change in the outcome would be Cora not blaming her husband for Sybil’s death. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/615 "2013-02-04T20:32:18Z")
If there had been no doctor, she would have died. If Clarkson had been the only one, she would have died. If the specialist had been the only one, she would have died. That’s why Violet taking a hand and getting the doc, Robert, and Cora together was NOT dishonest and she did not ask him to lie. What she did was get all of them to recognize the truth: Sybil would have died no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![brownMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@brownMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownMouse)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/616 "2013-02-04T20:49:30Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > That’s why Violet taking a hand and getting the doc, Robert, and Cora together was NOT dishonest and she did not ask him to lie. What she did was get all of them to recognize the truth: Sybil would have died no matter what. Oh, I think she was quite willing to have him lie, if need be. Or stretch the truth. To her, the end (Robert and Cora’s reconciliation) was worth more than the means. I think the only reason Dr. Clarkson agreed was that it _was_ the truth; but I think even he sort of stretched the “poor outcome” odds to suit Violet. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/617 "2013-02-04T20:50:04Z")
Violet used her power over Doctor Clarkson to shelter her little boy from the results of his actions. She has probably been doing that all his life–which explains why he is so sure that he can never be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/618 "2013-02-04T20:59:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Predictions: Daisy has a May-December marriage with her father-in-law; Tom gets his daughter baptized Catholic, but leaves her to be raised by Matthew and Mary. I’d really be okay with this. He’s a charmer. Would Daisy consider him? She’s so uptight about the oddest things. She might think it’d be incestuous or something. I finally figured out who the cute new footman reminds me of – the guy on _The Mentalist_. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/619 "2013-02-04T21:11:21Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Possibly my favorite exchange of the series. LOL! Mine too, thanks for reminding me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/620 "2013-02-04T21:16:00Z")
> [@brownMouse](#): > > Oh, I think she was quite willing to have him lie, if need be. But he didn’t have to. > [@](#): > > Or stretch the truth. But he didn’t have to. She asked him to research the subject, and he did, and he came up with the truth, which he reported. > [@](#): > > To her, the end (Robert and Cora’s reconciliation) was worth more than the means. And? > [@](#): > > I think the only reason Dr. Clarkson agreed was that it _was_ the truth He agreed to RESEARCH IT > [@](#): > > ; but I think even he sort of stretched the “poor outcome” odds to suit Violet. Sybil would have died anyway and no one truly knows or could know what the “odds” were? You are indulging in some serious nit-picking here. Why this Violet-bashing??? Holy cow, she’s practically the only one with balls in the whole dang family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791.md?page=32)