# Downton Abbey S3 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791 "2013-01-02T01:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/721 "2013-02-11T04:31:53Z")
I had a few questions about Downton Abbey that are outside the direct realm of the show and more historically-based. If this is not the best forum to ask, then I’ll be happy to start a thread elsewhere, but I thought I’d give it a shot here first: 1. Is “Downton” a small village which is owned by the Earl? I know the house is Downton Abbey, but we have seen shots of or heard mention of the Dower House and Mrs. Crawley’s house and the church and small stores and farms, etc. In addition, the Earl has mentioned they own the village. So, is that village called Downton? Or is that called Rippen? And what comprises the estate as opposed to the village? 2. What are the reasons for the fall of the aristrocracy and great houses around this time? I know that as factory jobs became more attractive, the service became less so and servants became more expensive and scarce. Also I imagine there was social pressure against the idea that these people should be so powerful simply because of their birth and that the common man should have great social, political and economic standing. What other factors were in play? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/722 "2013-02-11T05:53:53Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > …1. Is “Downton” a small village which is owned by the Earl? I know the house is Downton Abbey, but we have seen shots of or heard mention of the Dower House and Mrs. Crawley’s house and the church and small stores and farms, etc. In addition, the Earl has mentioned they own the village. So, is that village called Downton? Or is that called Rippen? And what comprises the estate as opposed to the village?.. The village is called Downton; Rippen is a neighboring town (which has the closest Catholic church). The village is technically part of the estate, but normally when they speak of “the estate” they mean the area around the big house and the tenant farmers’ allotments. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/723 "2013-02-11T08:24:13Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > **LavenderBlue** (dilly dilly - I always mentally say that when I see your name) - Robert is all too human. He treats Tom like the hired help because Tom _was_ the hired help. But he stood by Bates when both Carson and Cora thought he should go, as well as when he was convicted of murder. He acknowledged he owes Bates when he found out about the scandal being quashed. He trusted the specialist because he’s a high-priced, well-respected society doctor instead of a country GP - if I was told I had cancer, guess which one I would trust? He’s helped the servants where he could - Mrs. Patmore can see, the one servant whose son he helped into a better school, Bates with a high-priced lawyer (would Bates be alive now if he’d hired the village lawyer?) as well as hiring him when most would seen an unemployable cripple. The servants have always felt secure in going to him for help - far different then would have happened in most houses! > > He’s having trouble adjusting to changing times - well, the world is very different for me from 1961 when I was born until now, and some changes _aren’t_ for the better, for me at least. He’s kind and well-meaning. You’re right, he isn’t well-equipped to handle the estate, but he’s probably as well -equipped as any of his ancestors - the world is just moving too fast for him. I agree that Robert has gone out of his way to help Bates, but it’s mostly because Bates saved his life. Robert’s heart (if not his head) is usually in the right place, but dismissive attitude towards his wife and daughters makes it hard to like him. Of course, it would be difficult for a man like him to maintain the illusion of control in a quickly changing world, especially while surrounded by the strong women in his life and his more savvy sons-in-law. However, I hated him for the way he handled the Sybil situation. She was going to die either way, but he allowed the “specialist’s” ego get in the way of proper treatment. Robert is ruled by emotion rather than reason, and that’s one reason people don’t take him seriously. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/724 "2013-02-11T10:11:47Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > …Rippen is a neighboring town… The neighbouring town is Ripon, which is a real place. > **[Ripon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripon)** > > Ripon (/ˈrɪpən/) is a cathedral city and civil parish in North Yorkshire, England. The city is located at the confluence of two tributaries of the River Ure, the Laver and Skell. Within the boundaries of the historic West Riding of Yorkshire, the city is noted for its main feature, Ripon Cathedral, which is architecturally significant, as well as the Ripon Racecourse and other features such as its market. > The city was originally known as Inhrypum. Bede records that Alhfrith, king of the South... ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/725 "2013-02-11T13:19:43Z")
Okay, so what ‘minor operation’ could a woman have at that time, on basically an out-patient basis, that would take her from infertile to fertile? I thought it a very strange episode, especially as a season ending. All that foofarah over Thomas ending with him AND the other guy promoted. And all that time devoted to a cricket game. Not mention the new relative suddenly appearing. Oh, and of course Edith is yet again getting involved in a romance that will lead only to bad things. Bah. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/726 "2013-02-11T13:21:20Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > …2. What are the reasons for the fall of the aristrocracy and great houses around this time? I know that as factory jobs became more attractive, the service became less so and servants became more expensive and scarce. Also I imagine there was social pressure against the idea that these people should be so powerful simply because of their birth and that the common man should have great social, political and economic standing. What other factors were in play? The aristocracy did not “fall.” They are still there, although with less political power. Social & economic changes had been working against the country house system since the 19th century. Remember Robert’s lawyer explaining how generations of mismanagement had led to a marriage to a rich American? Political changes–greater power for the less rich & more education for all–made the great houses harder to keep. (They had always been knocked down & rebuilt; at some point, they stopped rebuilding them. ) [This article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_country_houses_in_20th-century_Britain) goes into great detail how taxes, death duties & servant shortages led to the demise of many a great pile. Some of the noble families were gutted–but others picked the most economical of the several places they owned, stocked it with the best loot & let the others go. Some years ago, it was realized that the great dumps were worth preserving. They could be left to the National Trust–or the owners could get with the program. And turn their places into hotels, tourist attractions, film locations, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/727 "2013-02-11T14:25:59Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I was astonished that Thomas managed to come out on top yet again. Though not in the way he would have liked. Did anybody else think that some of the attitudes towards homosexuality were a bit too modern by Lord Grantham (he hates Catholics but has nothing against predatory homos?) and some of the staff? I can see Mrs. Hughes being more progressive and Isobel has probably been topless on a Gay Pride float, but some of the others were a bit too “well, that’s okay then”, especially in the “he was born that way” attitude and considering the fact that (while there are circumstances they don’t realize) this wasn’t just “we all knew Thomas was a whoopsie” but rather an incident that was little if anything short of a sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/728 "2013-02-11T14:47:56Z")
Oh get back in the drawer, Miss Sharp! ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/729 "2013-02-11T15:02:30Z")
Sampiro, I thought the attitudes toward homosexuality were a little too modern, though I yelped in surprise when Robert said he’d been smooched a-plenty when he was in school! Really, this whole episode reeked of sex. Thomas and his attempts to get him some. Mathew and Mary’s fertility issues which made me think about sex, Bates and Anna finally getting their own home and finally getting to have sex. Little Missy Party Girl and the two hours she spent at the home of her married boyfriend. Sex, sex, sex! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/730 "2013-02-11T15:09:18Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I was astonished that Thomas managed to come out on top yet again. He was facing dismissal without a reference and quite possibly prison time and now he’s been promoted to underbutler! > > I was also surprised that he knew about O’Brien and “her ladyship’s soap”. Season one was so long ago I may have forgotten, but I don’t remember O’Brien telling him about that and it seems unlikely that she would have. Refresh the memory of those who have no idea what the soap issue was. Like me. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/731 "2013-02-11T15:16:05Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I thought it a very strange episode, especially as a season ending. But it’s not a season ending - there’s one more 95-minute episode on 2/17. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/732 "2013-02-11T15:20:04Z")
The 2-hour episode we saw on PBS was actually the last two episodes of Series 3 in the UK. So the series/season did “end” with the cricket game. Months later, the UK got the Christmas episode, which we will see next Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/733 "2013-02-11T15:20:05Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Refresh the memory of those who have no idea what the soap issue was. Like me. It happened way back when Cora was pregnant with the surprise baby, and O’Brien was angry because she’d been led to believe she was about to be fired. Cora was in the bath and O’Brien accidentally on purpose left a bar of soap where Cora would step on it getting out of the tub. Cora fell hard and lost the baby. Worst of all, I seem to recall that the baby woudl have been a boy - thus rendering all this falderol unecessary. Strange to think how much the fans owe to O’Brien, given how we despise her. . . 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/734 "2013-02-11T15:42:13Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Okay, so what ‘minor operation’ could a woman have at that time, on basically an out-patient basis, that would take her from infertile to fertile? Wiki says IUD’s were available at that time. I think she got one, and had it removed when she was finally sure she wanted a baby. I don’t think she was sure before, and after Sybil died, she was probably scared. Also, there was a scene this week with Mary and Matthew where Matthew was all gung-ho about managing Downton. Mary looked at him differently, like “Wow, you really are worthy of being heir, maybe I’ll have a baby with you after all.” I’m okay with the modern views about Thomas. Just like now, people might say one thing when it doesn’t directly affect them, but they’ll be different when it becomes personal. And Thomas is one of them. I don’t like Thomas being Bates’ boss, but maybe he won’t take too much advantage, since he knows Bates saved him. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/735 "2013-02-11T15:44:42Z")
I think that Carson will still be his boss. The issue is that Thomas now has a higher rank than Bates. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/736 "2013-02-11T16:09:00Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Wiki says IUD’s were available at that time. I think she got one, and had it removed when she was finally sure she wanted a baby. I don’t think she was sure before, and after Sybil died, she was probably scared. Also, there was a scene this week with Mary and Matthew where Matthew was all gung-ho about managing Downton. Mary looked at him differently, like “Wow, you really are worthy of being heir, maybe I’ll have a baby with you after all.” Er… huh? The fact that she’s not pregnant has been weighing on her all season. I doubt there’d be so much hand-wringing if she’d known she had an IUD. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/737 "2013-02-11T16:14:33Z")
Bates’ character is a walking deus ex machina and it’s getting old, Bates certainly has the ear of Robert and Thomas could have gotten his reference and found another job without him staying on. The dude is poison and no one knows that better than Bates, regardless of his pity and momentary euphoria of being free. I really hope hes not going to continue to be the chief antagonist again because that horse has been beaten past glue stick salvageable. I really like the new business triangle/relationship between Tom, Matthew and Robert. In many ways, at least as far as the village is concerned, Robert is now almost an intermediary between Tom and Matthew. Both his upbringing and his political ideology make Tom care for the tenants, Matthew cares too, but in a removed ‘whats good for Downton as their employer is good for them’ of a capital industrialist. Robert still feels the feudal responsibility, where he is lord, but has a direct social obligation (Mrs. Patmore’s eyes, Bate’s legal trouble, Anna’s time off, etc.). Tom surely knows Robert is no financial wiz but also Robert has been running Downton poorly _because_ he cares for the village. The side story of that 18 year old was lame, but there are certainly clumsier ways of introducing new core characters (looking at you Lost). How did Thomas know about the soap? I don’t recall O’Brien telling him. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/738 "2013-02-11T16:17:06Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Er… huh? The fact that she’s not pregnant has been weighing on her all season. I doubt there’d be so much hand-wringing if she’d known she had an IUD. I was hoping for a STD from the Turkish gentleman. :mad: In trying to research his name on Google I stumbled on a pretty massive spoiler. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/739 "2013-02-11T16:24:29Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Er… huh? The fact that she’s not pregnant has been weighing on her all season. I doubt there’d be so much hand-wringing if she’d known she had an IUD. Could be, but I didn’t see her behavior that way. Matthew’s the one who’s been wringing his hands. He’s the one who kept bringing it up. To me, Mary has seemed unsure that she wanted to be pregnant. If she wanted to be pregnant, she would have had the doctor pop her hymen on her first visit to him. A second visit wouldn’t have been necessary. ---
**Author:** ![brownMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@brownMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownMouse)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791/740 "2013-02-11T16:41:51Z")
Yep, I too, was surprised by the modern attitude toward homosexuality. I mean geez, even today the concept of one not _choosing_ homosexuality isn’t widely accepted. Seemed remarkably (and improbably) lenient and progressive for so many upstairs and downstairs to have that view. And yeah, I about choked hearing Robert’s line about Eton!!! Really??? :eek: Wondering about this “surgery”: Sitnam has a good point that possibly The Wild Turk gave Mary a little more something to remember him by … gonorrhea could certainly have plugged up a Fallopian tube. But I can’t believe medicine at that time 1) could’ve efficiently diagnosed that, and 2) had a means to fix it, even more so as an outpatient, as someone mentioned. Anyone have any historical info on that? Well well! Robert is really trying to come into the new century! Kicking and screaming a bit, but I have to give it to him, I do believe he’s trying. Tom is turning out to be my very favorite character. He’s creative and crafty at managing all sorts of people, and when he sticks up for his beliefs, he does so respectfully but firmly. Just love him. And wasn’t Thomas behind the reason O’Brien thought she was going to be fired? -which is what brought on the soap incident? So how could Thomas have known she’d put it there on purpose? That was pretty lame. I do not like this Rose and thought that whole story was almost worthless, except that we got to see a jazz club and actual flappers! so that was cool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s3-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/645791.md?page=38)