Downton Abbey S3 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S.

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@Sampiro

but does anybody know if there are other servants we don’t see who do the mopping and firebuilding and the like but eat elsewhere, or is the grunt work of the Abbey something done by the footmen and maids when they’re not attending the family members in more formal occasions? And regarding the ‘8 servants’ for the smaller Downton Place, would they have been referring to letting three of those mentioned (Thomas, Alfred, etc.) or the “unseen” other staff?

Yes, there are many other lower servants that aren’t referenced by name but that we do see in the background at times. Several hallboys (remember the scene when Mrs Hughes gets a toaster and one of them runs in thinking there was a fire) and other maids.

I’d guess if they really wanted to cut it down to 8, it would be something like Butler, valet, housekeeper, footman, cook, kitchen assistant, lady’s maid, housemaid. Or the butler could double as valet and there would be another footman/male servant.

[Ellen_Cherry]

What are the duties of a butler? Besides managing the staff? He seems to be around at dinnertime; what are his actual duties – menu planning --overseeing the wine? Behind-the-scenes administrative duty? What?

[MaxTheVool]

@LavenderBlue

But Fellowes’s clumsy attempt to defend the class system he loves so much is laughably pathetic. The Earl’s a jerk and I reserve the right to say so in a thread devoted to the show.

I’m not sure I agree with either of your points:
(1) I don’t think that Fellowes is defending the class system at all. Or if he is, it’s in a “hey, you might think that every noble was an utterly selfish fascistic idiotic leech who basically treated everyone else as a serf, and it wasn’t that bad” way, as opposed to a “this was a good system that we should have today” way. The system DID exist, it DID break down, and watching that breakdown is fascinating, which is part of what makes the show good. If you have read a quote from Fellowes in which he expresses actually longing to return to the class system of the past, please point it out.

(2) No one is (as far as I can tell) attempting to trammel your right to express any opinion you like, certainly including your right to call the Earl a jerk

(3) That said, I think that saying he’s a jerk is a bit facile and reductive. He’s someone who was born into and grew up in a system that is incredibly alien to us. It’s easy for us to say that he didn’t deserve the wealth and power and influence that he had (and, quite clearly, that’s true). But remember that he didn’t invent the system. He didn’t wake up one morning and say “hey, I think I should be rich and powerful and live in luxury, just because”. He was born in the system, a system which had existed and done fairly well for centuries. Blaming him for the inequities of the system, and his inability to singlehandedly cure them, is a bit silly. Instead we should judge him within the role he plays. How does he compare to other Earls of the day? Well, we don’t actually see many of them, but I’d say that if we take his good qualities (and I think it’s pretty clear that, for instance, he takes his responsibilities as a noble very seriously, and it would in fact trouble him greatly if there were a plague or famine in his village, and he would do his best to alleviate the situation) and bad qualities (terribly mismanaged his wife’s money, generally mismanages the estate, frequently hidebound and stubborn) and balance them against each other; well, he’s neither a saint nor a devil. And I think that on the whole, I’d put him on the good side.

Let’s put it this way: for some magically hypothetical reason, you are going to be transported back in time to 1910 and will have to live and work as a farmer in England. You have two choices:
(1) you can live on a farm in a village where Lord Grantham is the earl
or
(2) You can live on a farm in a village where a totally random person is the earl

Which would you choose?

Certainly, if my two choices were to be a servant or underling for the Earl vs. a servant or underling for that newspaper guy I’d pick the Earl in a heartbeat even though the newspaper guy, being a self-made man, is more admirable by many modern standards. (Granted, the newspaper guy is a bit less likely to go bankrupt and leave me unemployed…)

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Nicely said.

[Rhiannon8404]

My biggest issue with Robert is that I don’t know what he does all day. I mean, he’s clearly not been managing the estate. Matthew mentions that many of the cottages are in disrepair (surely the landlord’s job to keep up repairs), rents are not being collected, crops are being grown where sheep should be raised, stuff like that. These seem to me to be the basics of running a huge estate and they’ve not been done.

[MaxTheVool]

@Rhiannon8404

My biggest issue with Robert is that I don’t know what he does all day. I mean, he’s clearly not been managing the estate. Matthew mentions that many of the cottages are in disrepair (surely the landlord’s job to keep up repairs), rents are not being collected, crops are being grown where sheep should be raised, stuff like that. These seem to me to be the basics of running a huge estate and they’ve not been done.

Sure, but from what we’ve seen, it seems more likely that he’s spending all day doing stuff that he THINKS is useful, answering correspondence and so forth, but he’s just doing the wrong stuff, or doing stuff poorly; as opposed to just spending all day gardening or something.

[alphaboi867]

@amarinth

That and a connection to his son. I’m not seeing anything non-platonic there at all. It’s very sweet and one of the storylines I really like right now. I hope she takes the tenancy now, buys it out when it’s eventually sold, and becomes an independent farm owner someday.

On a table in the distant finale is a jar of “Mrs Mason’s Jams” with Daisy’s face on it.

@Ellen_Cherry

What are the duties of a butler? Besides managing the staff? He seems to be around at dinnertime; what are his actual duties – menu planning --overseeing the wine? Behind-the-scenes administrative duty? What?

He manages all of the male servants (Mrs Huges is in change of the maids, Mrs Patemore the kitchen staff). He’s also in charge of all the alcohol; not just the wine. In most households he’d also serve as valet to the master of the house, but Downton is large enough for Lord Grantham to have a seperate valet.

[QUOTE=My biggest issue with Robert is that I don’t know what he does all day. I mean, he’s clearly not been managing the estate. Matthew mentions that many of the cottages are in disrepair (surely the landlord’s job to keep up repairs), rents are not being collected, crops are being grown where sheep should be raised, stuff like that. These seem to me to be the basics of running a huge estate and they’ve not been done.
]
My biggest issue with Robert is that I don’t know what he does all day. I mean, he’s clearly not been managing the estate. Matthew mentions that many of the cottages are in disrepair (surely the landlord’s job to keep up repairs), rents are not being collected, crops are being grown where sheep should be raised, stuff like that. These seem to me to be the basics of running a huge estate and they’ve not been done.
[/QUOTE]

He has a land agent to manage the estate (ie everything outside of the house).

[Rhiannon8404]

@MaxTheVool

Sure, but from what we’ve seen, it seems more likely that he’s spending all day doing stuff that he THINKS is useful, answering correspondence and so forth, but he’s just doing the wrong stuff, or doing stuff poorly; as opposed to just spending all day gardening or something.

Right, that’s what I mean. He obviously thinks he doing the right things to run the estate. But he clearly isn’t. Someone needs to remind him of the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Sampiro]

@alphaboi867

On a table in the distant finale is a jar of “Mrs Mason’s Jams” with Daisy’s face on it.

Later learned to be a front for an abortifacient product on Call the Midwife.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@alphaboi867

I think [O’Brien’s] setting Thomas up, Jimmy’s just collateral damage. She was trying to get Alfred to become Matthew’s valet; at this point I don’t think she really cares about Bates anymore.

I don’t think she ever did!

Hadn’t known that British law forbade marrying your former father-in-law. Thanks - ignorance fought.

[ThelmaLou]

@ThelmaLou

Call the Midwife is a fantastic program, but so much sadness… I had to quit watching it.

@LavenderBlue

I cried and cried and cried. But it was just so well done I thought they found hope rather than sadness so that’s how I felt afterwards. The main character’s narration was wonderfully insightful.

The trouble with that program was every time

a woman got pregnant

you never knew

if she and/or the baby would live or die. The odds in favor of the survival of both were only about 50-50.

After a while, I couldn’t take it any more. However, the program is really well done, and I recommend it to anyone who is made of sterner stuff than I.

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

Re: the background downstairs people, I actually just saw this photoset posted on Tumblr tonight, of the various unnamed servants in the house:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/6f30f4845bc0199affb13a514cfb3cc7/tumblr_mhu566sT6H1rexo3io1_500.jpg

[Bridget_Burke]

@alphaboi867

…He has a land agent to manage the estate (ie everything outside of the house).

Who* is* the land agent? Great estates certainly would have had a land agent or a steward. He’d be the highest ranking member of the staff–with the butler in charge of running the house itself–and would have spent a lot of time working with Robert. But I can’t remember meeting the land agent or hearing of him. The lawyer advises Robert–although the advice is often ignored. But he lives in London.

A house that size definitely had a larger staff than we’ve met. Daisy was an assistant cook, not a scullery maid. And junior housemaids would have been laying the fires–but it was useful for the plot to have her up early so she could see Pamuk’s removal from Mary’s room. We’ve seen those folks scurrying around the edges but the full scope of the household is only suggested. (As is the social milieu of the Quality; surely they had some friends & acquaintances.)

If Downton Abbey had been sold (or leased, which the entail might have demanded) most of the staff would have stayed there. The new owners/tenants would not have brought every under housemaid & groom–just perhaps their favorite servants. And the Crawleys’ faves would have gone with them to that hovel we saw. I wonder if the new folks would have tried to poach some of the senior staff? That was a favorite pastime of the Quality.

(Speaking of poaching–we never met a gamekeeper. For a while, I thought his services might be required. But Matthew recovered.)

[Kimstu]

@Bridget_Burke

(Speaking of poaching–we never met a gamekeeper. For a while, I thought his services might be required. But Matthew recovered.)

I saw what you did there.

[PunditLisa]

I think that the show does a marvelous job illustrating how the massive social changes caused by the war is causing both internal and external conflict. The Earl and Mr. Carson, who are quite used to being in complete control, are having the hardest time adjusting to the new world order. This past week’s episode showed their visible frustration at not being able to control their own staff/family. They’re losing both their influence and power, and they’re well aware of it. Worse, they are being dismissed as being “old-fashioned.”

It’s not the least bit surprising that those in power wanted to keep status quo, and those who aren’t in power don’t. And it’s always fascinating to watch how it all unfolds. Sweeping change rarely happens without a good deal of bloodshed.

Since the men held all the power in the pre-war period, at every level of society, it is most fascinating see how the women characters are dealing with the changes. On the one hand, they are seeing the endless possibilities that are opening up for all of them. On the other, people like Cora, Mary and the Dowager are facing the end of their cozy world.

Who’s going to embrace it and who’s going to be left behind? It’s like Gone with the Wind for the Brits!

[SanVito]

@LavenderBlue

I cried and cried and cried. But it was just so well done I thought they found hope rather than sadness so that’s how I felt afterwards. The main character’s narration was wonderfully insightful.

I think the great success of the show is that it’s based on an autobiography – so the stories and characters are based on real events and people and consequently feel, as you say, insightful. Unlike Fellowes’ fantasy of the upper classes.

[kath94]

@SanVito

I think the great success of the show is that it’s based on an autobiography – so the stories and characters are based on real events and people and consequently feel, as you say, insightful. Unlike Fellowes’ fantasy of the upper classes.

I was just thinking about this. **Call the Midwife **is based on a nonfiction book. ** Downton Abbey **is based on whatever Julian Fellowes can pull out of his ass.

[Mean_Mr.Mustard]

@Ellen_Cherry

What are the duties of a butler?

Why, he buttles, of course.
mmm

[Magiver]

@PunditLisa

On the other, people like Cora, Mary and the Dowager are facing the end of their cozy world.

Not really. Their option is to move in to a mansion (by today’s standard) with a cook and cleaning service and not be bothered with changing clothes 4 times a day. Instead of a chauffeur and someone to dress them they’d be out buying fun cars and driving themselves to the store. The people losing their lifestyle would be the servants who did all the useless stuff.

[well_he_s_back]

Kath94 said “I was just thinking about this. Call the Midwife is based on a nonfiction book. Downton Abbey is based on whatever Julian Fellowes can pull out of his ass.” -
but the Upstairs Downstairs series was original to TV also. You don’t have to be based on a book to be well-plotted. Upstairs Downstairs had good writers.