# Downton Abbey S4 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844 "2013-03-02T19:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/241 "2014-01-22T19:40:52Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Edith didn’t even look at what she was signing. He is going to Germany of all places. What if he becomes a facist? We all know what happened to the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. They were shunned, he marrieds a divocee, so the family were forbidden to attend their marriage, and moreover they were shunned because they were friendly with Hitler, and sent away to Bermuda for most of the war. I just think Edith has to be smarter than she is. I’m disappointed that she’s a bit daft. Agree about the signing blindly thing\* but, while Fellowes is clearly (Munich in 1922-23) setting up Gregson for a run-in with the proto-Nazis, I think it’s a lot more likely he’ll be their victim than joining them. Just because some educated middle-and-upper-class Brits flirted with fascism (especially during the Depression) doesn’t mean they all did or were inclined to, nor were all anti-fascists communists or socialists. Which is more likely? 1. The well-educated publisher who printed Edith’s votes-for-(more)-women letter joins a bunch of loser hyper-nationalist street thugs who happen to have a [del]histrionic[/del] charismatic leader. 2. An expat Brit walks into a beer hall for a frank’n’stein 🙂 during [cough] someone’s rip-roaring speech on the Versailles treaty/“stab in the back” and the speaker or someone in the audience notices a hated Brit in their midst and decides to take more immediate and visceral revenge than the eventual rearming of Germany. :eek: \*I presume it was a power of attorney – him giving her power of attorney because he’s going abroad but still has a business, home, etc. in the UK – inserted in the plot to (1) show Gregson trusts Edith implicitly and (2) give her a new role as publisher when _something_ happens to Gregson. 😉 I was expecting Lady Rosamund, when ambushing Edith, to retort to Edith’s “we’re going to marry” that “that’s what they all say,” with Edith trumping her by throwing the power of attorney in her face and saying “But they ‘all’ don’t give their mistress power of attorney, you old bat!” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/242 "2014-01-23T01:34:27Z")
I still think that, for the second week in a row, the show has just totally gone down hill. Not sure how to explain it but, it now seems much like any other soap opera. Hope it snaps out of it. It was followed by Sherlock,(_I never thought I would say this_) which was much more entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/243 "2014-01-23T02:24:58Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Agree about the signing blindly thing\* but, while Fellowes is clearly (Munich in 1922-23) setting up Gregson for a run-in with the proto-Nazis, I think it’s a lot more likely he’ll be their victim than joining them. I still say the story arc is going to end with Edith getting engaged to Hitler and then him dumping her for Eva Braun. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/244 "2014-01-23T13:16:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I still say the story arc is going to end with Edith getting engaged to Hitler and then him dumping her for Eva Braun. Presumably after discovering that [her maternal grandfather was Jewish](http://www.timesofisrael.com/sorry-fans-no-yiddishkeit-at-downton-abbey/)! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/245 "2014-01-23T13:24:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I still say the story arc is going to end with Edith getting engaged to Hitler and then him dumping her for Eva Braun. She _never_ gets the guy. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/246 "2014-01-23T14:41:31Z")
> [@APB](#): > > Presumably after discovering that [her maternal grandfather was Jewish](http://www.timesofisrael.com/sorry-fans-no-yiddishkeit-at-downton-abbey/)! Even if Levinson was ethnically Jewish, Jewish identity passes through the mother, not the father. So Cora’s MOTHER would have to be Jewish in order for her to be Jewish. It wouldn’t matter what her father or grandfather were. Strictly speaking, there are only two ways to be Jewish: 1. Be born of a Jewish mother. 2. Convert. In fact, I have known of Jewish men married to non-Jewish women who go through a conversion ceremony (including a trip to the _mikveh_) with/for their babies to insure that their Jewish identity is secure and documented. Why would they bother? It might be relevant if the children ever want to exercise the “Right of Return” and emigrate to Israel where the orthodox rabbis have strict control. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/247 "2014-01-23T14:54:29Z")
Concerning the Stopes book: obviously, Lord Fellowes watched _Parade’s End_. I first noted a link when Gregson’s search for a German divorce reminded me of Ford Madox Ford’s pre-war trip to Germany. At least Ford (formerly Hueffer) had a German father… At the heart of _Parade’s End_ is an unfortunate marriage caused by a woman’s fear that her married lover had impregnated her. She jumped on the first eligible member of the gentry, who then did the honorable thing. Later, they both realized that she might not have been pregnant–until the jumping! Another female character shows naivete about sexual matters as a very young woman. Really, there _was_ very little reliable sexual information available to the public. Tom Stoppard wrote the script for the _Parade’s End_ miniseries. He researched the era & inserted some scenes to illustrate concepts FMF had only suggested. Woman #1 learned about contraception, to avoid any more mistakes. Woman #2 learned about sexuality–because she found a copy of the Stopes book. Lord Fellowes seems to have seen the series & leapt to the conclusion that the Stopes book was about contraception. So only a brazen hussy would own a copy… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/248 "2014-01-23T16:23:42Z")
If Edna lands a job in a Chinese restaurant, would that make her a wonton hussy? As to Englishwomen marrying German dudes with poor timing, that’s a plotline in Kate Atkinson’s recent excellent novel _Life After Life_, in which the lead character marries a German man in the early Thirties. He eventually becomes a Nazi bureaucrat and dies during a WWII bombing raid on Berlin, leaving his wife and young daughter to die during the final Soviet assault on the city in 1945. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/249 "2014-01-23T16:46:07Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Even if Levinson was ethnically Jewish, Jewish identity passes through the mother, not the father. So Cora’s MOTHER would have to be Jewish in order for her to be Jewish. It wouldn’t matter what her father or grandfather were. > > Strictly speaking, there are only two ways to be Jewish: > > 1. Be born of a Jewish mother. > 2. Convert. > > In fact, I have known of Jewish men married to non-Jewish women who go through a conversion ceremony (including a trip to the _mikveh_) with/for their babies to insure that their Jewish identity is secure and documented. Why would they bother? It might be relevant if the children ever want to exercise the “Right of Return” and emigrate to Israel where the orthodox rabbis have strict control. Not according to Hitler… ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/250 "2014-01-23T16:51:32Z")
> [@APB](#): > > Not according to Hitler… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/251 "2014-01-23T17:11:55Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > :rolleyes: I don’t know why you’re rolling your eyes. The discussion was about Edith’s relationship with someone who is trying to become a German citizen. If Edith did end up moving to Germany to live with and ultimately marry him, the fact that her grandfather was Jewish could have a huge impact on her fate when Hitler comes to power. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/252 "2014-01-23T19:57:49Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I don’t know why you’re rolling your eyes. The discussion was about Edith’s relationship with someone who is trying to become a German citizen. If Edith did end up moving to Germany to live with and ultimately marry him, the fact that her grandfather was Jewish could have a huge impact on her fate when Hitler comes to power. I was eyerolling at Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/253 "2014-01-23T20:08:51Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I was eyerolling at Hitler. Right, why? How do you think Hitler (and through him, his party) identified who was Jewish and who was not? They didn’t do it by maternal lineage, but by any Jewish ancestor, up to a certain point. For example, read here: [Racial policy of Nazi Germany - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany#Racial_policies_regarding_the_Jews.2C_1933-1940) ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/254 "2014-01-23T20:51:04Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Right, why? How do you think Hitler (and through him, his party) identified who was Jewish and who was not? They didn’t do it by maternal lineage, but by any Jewish ancestor, up to a certain point. > > For example, read here: [Racial policy of Nazi Germany - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany#Racial_policies_regarding_the_Jews.2C_1933-1940) Hitler’s way of identifying Jews was not the Jewish way of establishing Jewish identity. He made his own rules and based a course of devastation and carnage on it. Anyway I was responding to a point about the Granthams admitting Jews into their inner circle. I was not addressing potential problems for Edith if she lived in Germany married to a German in the 1930’s and had a grandfather with a Jewish last name who may or may not have been considered Jewish by other Jews. Yes, she would have been in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/255 "2014-01-23T22:39:30Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Anyway I was responding to a point about the Granthams admitting Jews into their inner circle. You were actually responding to a post about how Hitler would break up with Lady Edith once he realized she had a Jewish grandfather. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/256 "2014-01-24T00:21:31Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > You were actually responding to a post about how Hitler would break up with Lady Edith once he realized she had a Jewish grandfather. I see that now, but at the time, in my mind I was responding to something else. My bad. Can we drop this now, please?? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/257 "2014-01-24T02:53:40Z")
Certainly. I’m sure Lord Grantham would approve. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/258 "2014-01-27T03:07:11Z")
Wow, an entirely new plot device! People were discussing sensitive matters in a hall with doors everywhere and somebody overheard them. Good job, Julian Fellowes. We’ve never seen THAT before! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/259 "2014-01-27T03:16:25Z")
I thought it was a great episode. What doctor was Lady Edith seeing? Did Bates buy the intruder story? I love the Bates/Anna relationship. Thomas finally figured out you don’t make people hate you to get ahead. Interesting new people- the government guy, the new tenant, the kid gardener. Bates is scary when he’s mad. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/260 "2014-01-27T03:28:53Z")
I enjoyed that episode, despite missing the first 10 minutes due to a cranky toddler not wanting to be in bed. While I will go back later and catch up, does anyone have a quick answer for what is the connection between Thomas and the new lady’s maid? While I do love to hate Thomas, I always feel Rob James-Collier is a terrific actor, because Thomas is so awful, yet I completely buy it and feel empathy for him when he does things like mention, sincerely, that Lady Sybil was a nice person. OH, THOMAS. I am still very mixed on the Bates/Anna plot. While I can understand Anna’s distress, and the fact that she is probably not making the best emotional decisions right now, it strikes me as extremely _odd_ that her response to Bates would be to simply stop interacting with him – and that his response to that would be to assume she didn’t love him … as opposed to assuming she was off her rocker. Poor Mrs. Hughes, being bullied like that. And Bates in the hall in the final scene … there’s really no need to _menace_ Mrs. Hughes, that was creepy and uncalled for. Even after all that, I still got very emotional when he and Anna finally had their conversation because it was so sweet. Is the government guy someone we’ve seen before, or an entirely new character who we are to assume chased after Mary at some point in their youth? I wish there had been more Edith, I like her storyline this season. Also, not enough Dowager. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=14)