# Downton Abbey S4 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844 "2013-03-02T19:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/301 "2014-01-28T05:17:22Z")
> [@](#): > > I really don’t understand this. Are you telling me that if someone you loved was raped, you would not feel vengeance? > > If you think Bates thinks of Anna as “his possession” then you have clearly not been watching the same show as everyone else. I think it’s good to have a little historical context here. Women in the UK only got the universal right to vote in 1928, before that, only privileged women with restrictions were allowed this right. Anna as part of the working class would definitely have to wait another 6 years before she could exercise this right. And, with Coverture laws of the times a married woman’s rights when it came to owning property or having their money was completely assumed by the husband as “head of the household”. She basically gave up her independence, and this was very much part of the culture. Even some legal documents in the past referred to the wife as “chattel” - that is property. Some would argue that role enslaved married women well into mid-century, to the point of the Women’s movement reaching it’s peak. So it’s entirely possible in 1922 that Bates might feel there was a violation of his “responsibiity” as well as sympathy for the woman he loves. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/302 "2014-01-28T09:53:54Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I wondered why Lord Grantham (looking so dapper in a top hat!) was so hesitant with the guy who wanted to take over his father’s farm. Wouldn’t it be easier to just let the guy have it, work out a payment plan for the arrearage, and continue the tradition “since the days of George III”? Seemed like a no-brainer to me, esp. since the amount at issue was only 50 pounds. Even in those days, it wasn’t THAT much money, compared to the value of a farm. My take was that the debt is a lot more than 50 pounds. There was a look exchanged between Mary and Tom when the farmer’s son mentioned the 50 pounds, and then when they stopped and finished their conversation by the car, Tom mentioned something about going through with this after what her father had agreed to and she mentioned something about what a good man he is. (Explaining why Lord Grantham was so hesitant with the farmer, he knew he was getting himself back into hot water with Mary and Tom by throwing such a lowball number.) I took that to mean they were willing to let the farmer’s son take over, and hope he does start to turn a profit so they could absorb the substantial portion of debt over the 50 pounds. Eventually. Because they’re good people. Or did I just make that all up in my head?? ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/303 "2014-01-28T15:50:34Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > My take was that the debt is a lot more than 50 pounds. There was a look exchanged between Mary and Tom when the farmer’s son mentioned the 50 pounds, and then when they stopped and finished their conversation by the car, Tom mentioned something about going through with this after what her father had agreed to and she mentioned something about what a good man he is. (Explaining why Lord Grantham was so hesitant with the farmer, he knew he was getting himself back into hot water with Mary and Tom by throwing such a lowball number.) > > I took that to mean they were willing to let the farmer’s son take over, and hope he does start to turn a profit so they could absorb the substantial portion of debt over the 50 pounds. Eventually. Because they’re good people. > > Or did I just make that all up in my head?? I just hope the show gets back to more of that kind of thing. The actual caring for, and supporting of, the Abbey itself. And maybe a little of Bates revenge mixed in. I’ve had enough of all the lovey dovey crap for awhile. Until this season, Downton was my main show of the week. Now it’s more like a warm up for Sherlock. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/304 "2014-01-28T16:08:16Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Or did I just make that all up in my head?? I think so. What I took from it was that the farmer’s son was able to cobble together all the arrears except for the 50 pounds and that the main problem was that the legalities had all been done to foreclose. As near as I can tell, 50 pounds in 1920 is about $2500 in today’s dollars. Not a huge amount for sure but I can believe the son could be short that much. We don’t know how he managed to pay the arrears (or what that amount was). He may have had personal savings or borrowed it or had help from family. I assume that since he didn’t own that land, he wouldn’t be able to use it as collateral for a bank loan. I don’t understand why Fellowes chose such a small amount. Maybe because it’s small enough that the family won’t be pissed at Robert for lending it. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/305 "2014-01-28T17:10:12Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > As near as I can tell, 50 pounds in 1920 is about $2500 in today’s dollars. Not a huge amount for sure but I can believe the son could be short that much. We don’t know how he managed to pay the arrears (or what that amount was). He may have had personal savings or borrowed it or had help from family. I assume that since he didn’t own that land, he wouldn’t be able to use it as collateral for a bank loan. > > I don’t understand why Fellowes chose such a small amount. Maybe because it’s small enough that the family won’t be pissed at Robert for lending it. It was not a small amount. Remember that a servant’s \*\*whole pay for a year \*\*might be 30 pounds. I know this came up in the discussion earlier… ETA: Here’s the [link](http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/servantwages.htm). Even though the amounts may look small to us now, in relative terms, $2,500 was, for example, more than 80 years’ pay for a servant. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/306 "2014-01-28T17:27:32Z")
Maybe I’ve got Pete Seeger on the brain, but this discussion reminds me of the folk song [Seven Cent Cotton and 40 Cent Meat](http://lyrics.wikia.com/Pete_Seeger:Seven_Cent_Cotton_And_Forty_Cent_Meat). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/307 "2014-01-28T17:32:12Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > It was not a small amount. Remember that a servant’s \*\*whole pay for a year \*\*might be 30 pounds. I know this came up in the discussion earlier… > > ETA: Here’s the [link](http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/servantwages.htm). Even though the amounts may look small to us now, in relative terms, $2,500 was, for example, more than 80 years’ pay for a servant. Wasn’t Lord Grantham’s loss to the card sharp in the 50 pound range, an amount that would have caused Cora to have a major shit fit? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/308 "2014-01-28T17:58:50Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > It was not a small amount. Remember that a servant’s \*\*whole pay for a year \*\*might be 30 pounds. I know this came up in the discussion earlier… > > ETA: Here’s the [link](http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/servantwages.htm). Even though the amounts may look small to us now, in relative terms, $2,500 was, for example, more than 80 years’ pay for a servant. But this guy wasn’t a servant. My impression (invention?) was that he had left the farm in the care of his father and had a career/job elsewhere. He was able to come up with most of the arrears, except for that 50 pounds. IMHO the whole situation could have been written more realistically, but then we wouldn’t have had Mary talking about her father being a good man. Fellowes could have spelled out how much money total the farmer owed, so we’d know whether 50 pounds was half the money or a small percentage. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/309 "2014-01-28T18:05:28Z")
I don’t think they ever said how much Lord G. lost at poker. Earlier in the thread, we were talking about the “loan” paid back to Molesley. Based on that, I think 50 pounds would’ve been equivalent to about $5500 today. The dead farmer’s foreclosure is the only one we know about, but since Tom and Mary are doing everything they can to save the estate, there may well be others, with the dead guy being used as illustration. Although, being Irish, I think Tom would have a crisis of conscience being the evil landlord and throwing tenants off their land. Too much like what happened to the Irish. StG ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/310 "2014-01-28T18:27:59Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > I think it’s good to have a little historical context here. > > Women in the UK only got the universal right to vote in 1928, before that, only privileged women with restrictions were allowed this right. Anna as part of the working class would definitely have to wait another 6 years before she could exercise this right. > > And, with Coverture laws of the times a married woman’s rights when it came to owning property or having their money was completely assumed by the husband as “head of the household”. She basically gave up her independence, and this was very much part of the culture. Even some legal documents in the past referred to the wife as “chattel” - that is property. Some would argue that role enslaved married women well into mid-century, to the point of the Women’s movement reaching it’s peak. > So it’s entirely possible in 1922 that Bates might feel there was a violation of his “responsibiity” as well as sympathy for the woman he loves. Thanks for supplying that historical context, but perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word “possession” in reference to Anna. Clearly Bates loves her and wants to protect her. My issue is his seeming short-sightedness in failing to realize that if he avenges her by killing the rapist, he will be leaving her alone and unprotected if and when he is arrested and tried. I hope this subplot can be resolved in a more satisfying way because I do think they make a good couple. I just don’t want to see both of their lives ruined by this. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/311 "2014-01-28T19:19:58Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > I think it’s good to have a little historical context here. > > Women in the UK only got the universal right to vote in 1928, before that, only privileged women with restrictions were allowed this right. Anna as part of the working class would definitely have to wait another 6 years before she could exercise this right. > > And, with Coverture laws of the times a married woman’s rights when it came to owning property or having their money was completely assumed by the husband as “head of the household”. She basically gave up her independence, and this was very much part of the culture. Even some legal documents in the past referred to the wife as “chattel” - that is property. Some would argue that role enslaved married women well into mid-century, to the point of the Women’s movement reaching it’s peak. > So it’s entirely possible in 1922 that Bates might feel there was a violation of his “responsibiity” as well as sympathy for the woman he loves. The Married Women’s Property Acts of 1870, 1882 and 1893 had abolished coverture. So in 1922 married women held property and earned money in their own right. Now it is true that many institutions continued to discriminate against women over matters such as separate bank accounts or the granting of mortgages. And, even more importantly, most wives still voluntarily handed over property or earnings to their husbands. But the principle of equality on this point had been enshrined in law and, as the most obvious example of equality already achieved at a time when their other rights were still being hotly contested, most women were fully aware of the fact. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/312 "2014-01-28T20:02:05Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > But this guy wasn’t a servant. My impression (invention?) was that he had left the farm in the care of his father and had a career/job elsewhere. He was able to come up with most of the arrears, except for that 50 pounds. > > IMHO the whole situation could have been written more realistically, but then we wouldn’t have had Mary talking about her father being a good man. Fellowes could have spelled out how much money total the farmer owed, so we’d know whether 50 pounds was half the money or a small percentage. \*\*I know he wasn’t a servant. \*\*I was just using servant’s wages as a comparative example regarding what people of different classes might be making as standard wages. To US today, $2,500 isn’t a lot of money–I daresay most of the people here easily bring home that and more every month. But a servant… or other person of low economic stature back then might only make that amount in a year. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/313 "2014-01-28T21:08:18Z")
I think the 50 pounds is a great number – it’s low enough that Lord Grantham can loan it to someone with reasonable ease, but it’s high enough that the son of a tenant farmer would need some time to save and put together that sum for repayment. I do wish we knew what percentage it was of the entire debt, that is true. Mostly because I am wondering just how deep into debt a farmer could get to the estate. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/314 "2014-01-28T23:17:05Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > …Women in the UK only got the universal right to vote in 1928, before that, only privileged women with restrictions were allowed this right. Anna as part of the working class would definitely have to wait another 6 years before she could exercise this right… It’s actually more complicated than that. In 1918 women were granted the vote if they were; over 30 and either met a property qualification (like being a householder) or were a graduate from a British university. Married women could vote if _their husband_ met the property qualification. If Bates still has that house in London or other property than Anna could vote. None of the other female servants can vote, and neither can _Lady Edith_ (her journalism career started with the letter to the editor she wrote complaining about this). Cora can also vote (ironically Robert can’t, at least for Parliament, since he’s a peer). Violet and Isobel are in a grey area. Isobel has a life interest in Crawley House, and might still own property in Manchester. It’s not clear if Violet actually owns any property in her own right, get’s an allowance from Robert, has a life interest in part of the previous earl’s estate, or a combination of all three. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/315 "2014-01-29T01:14:55Z")
Fifty pounds is certainly a recurring sum this year - Bates’s “repayment” to Molesley, and the Earl’s loan to the young farmer. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/316 "2014-01-29T01:29:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Fifty pounds is certainly a recurring sum this year - Bates’s “repayment” to Molesley, and the Earl’s loan to the young farmer. I thought Bates payment was 30 pounds? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_from\_CB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/278dde/32.png) [@Alex\_from\_CB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_from_CB)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/317 "2014-01-30T21:24:41Z")
Call me Bobby. Best friends call me LG. Bates isn’t going to \*go postal \*on Green in the town square. He’ll be subtle. May not even kill him. Wouldn’t be justice if he killed him. Afterall, Green didn’t kill Anna. Perhaps a farm accident or some other accident that leaves Green paralyzed. And when Anna half suspecting Bates caused it asks him, He’ll deny it. “I swear on my grandchildren’s eyes I had nothing to do with Green’s injury.” Anna believes him. The door closes, slowly. This whole plot was all from in a movie back in about 1972. ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/318 "2014-01-31T02:26:12Z")
As far as letting the tenant keep the farm. I think, it was a lot of Lord Grantham showing Mary and Tom that he was still in control. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/319 "2014-02-03T04:02:23Z")
Most enjoyable episode tonight. Violet in fine form again. I love seeing Isobel and her spar. Rose bringing jazz musicians into the home and then engaging in inter-racial romance with a hot black guy who one-ups Carson. Poor bitter Daisy. She needs a new boyfriend stat. She’s almost as miserable as Moseley now. Lady Mary has found someone who dislikes her because of her class assumptions. It’s about time. So Edith is pregnant. I wonder what her parents will make of this. She’s clearly already in the midst of pregnancy hormones. I hope they’re not going to kill off Violet. She adds bite the show needs. My favorite season so far since the first one. ---
**Author:** ![Sarabellum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarabellum/32/3492_2.png) [@Sarabellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarabellum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/320 "2014-02-03T06:08:13Z")
Poor Edith. Any time she takes a risk, she is doomed to instant, life-haunting humiliation. Maybe Sir Strallon will change his mind and marry her to give the baby a name, and give his ancient self an heir? Could they have found a less attractive baby to play little Sybbie? I think not. They should have found a little raving beauty to play the offspring of two such attractive characters. And that nursery is going to start getting cramped, when they put Edith’s love child in there with Sybbie and George next season. It seems unlikely that Tom will follow through on his threat to leave Downton, IMO. And if Edith seemed to have trouble finding a husband, imagine the next generation crop of Downton kids! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=17)