# Downton Abbey S4 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844 "2013-03-02T19:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/61 "2014-01-06T21:48:58Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Carstairs? Carson. And I think he so loves Mary he can get away with tearing at the boundaries between them just a little. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/62 "2014-01-06T21:53:46Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > And I’m still not at all clear who Edna is. I had to check online for more info because I barely remember her, but she was in the Christmas special and was the maid who flirted with and kissed Tom (Sibyl’s Tom, not Thomas) while the rest of the family was in Scotland. She also kept saying how he wasn’t any better than her because he’d been a servant too and generally had an attitude problem. Mrs. Hughes sacked her, but Tom felt guilty and asked her to give Edna a good reference. ---
**Author:** ![FeAudrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/63 "2014-01-06T21:55:17Z")
When the series opened, the estate was entailed to the Earldom of Grantham. Cora’s dowry was folded into the estate. (see the “Season One” threads for details) When the current Earl of Grantham, Robert Crawley, lost the money portion of the estate (mostly Cora’s dowry), his heir/son-in-law, Matthew Crawley, put his susbstantial inheritance from the father of Lavinia Swire, his deceased fiancee, into the estate. He received a half-share of the whole estate in exchange; Lord Grantham could do this deal because he has control of management of the entailed estate. Matthew died leaving no known will, so intestacy laws kicked in. Under those, Lady Mary, as his widow, received a life interest (she gets the income, but has no control over the principal) in one-third of Matthew’s half (that’s where the “ **one-sixth** ” comes in), the other two-thirds going to their infant son, George. She and her father were squabbling over who administers George’s inheritance. Matthew’s newly-discovered letter, accepted as a properly-witnessed “testamentary intention”, gives Lady Mary all of his half. She can will it to whomever she chooses (just as Matthew did with her). George, as heir to earldom, will eventually get Lord Grantham’s half along with the title. The “death duties” everyone is agonizing over are taxes on the inheritance (Matthew’s half), and have to be paid whomever inherits. They were very high, intended as a slow-motion government confiscation of landed estates. In 1926, the stringent provisions of entail were removed from law, so Lord Grantham can now also will his half to whomever he pleases, but it’s still likely to be George. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/64 "2014-01-06T22:05:22Z")
The money from Matthew’s inheritance from Lavinia! Oh gosh, that clears it all up, I had completely forgotten about that. Thanks, **FeAudrey**! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/65 "2014-01-06T22:44:08Z")
In the first season, it’s made clear that Matthew inherited not only the title but Cora’s money as well. Violet was ready to break the title just to let Mary have the money. I thought that was interesting that she valued Downton more than the title of Earl. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/66 "2014-01-06T22:50:23Z")
Technically Carson was out of line, but the circumstances were bordering on desperate and in many ways he is emotionally closer to Mary than any family member, as shown by his holding her and encouraging her to cry. ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/67 "2014-01-06T22:58:06Z")
> [@Suse](#): > > I think Thomas wants to be Robert’s valet again and is forging an alliance with Edna toward that goal. He knows that Bates will figure out any action taken by either Thomas or Edna against Anna and is counting on Bates to (at least attempt to) get even, which he would then report to Cora as an unjustified attack. I don’t think he is actually targeting Anna but going after Bates indirectly. VERY interesting. You may have one of the major themes of the series. Maybe he is hoping Bates will loose his temper and do something causing him to loose his job. If he does, I hope he kicks some Thomas butt on his way out!!!:mad: ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/68 "2014-01-06T23:39:00Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Yeah, it was probably expected that she would be “in mourning” for a long time, but she was entirely dysfunctional. I think even in that context, a woman could be grieving and still going about her business. Or at least some portion of her business. Well, you know what I mean, right? Queen Victoria was criticised by her ministers and by the press for spending over a decade in mourning in seclusion to the neglect of her official duties. She caused republicanism to soar. Mary wearing widows weeds isn’t the problem; her spending most of her waking day alone in her, referring to her son as an orphan, and not taking an interest in the estate is. Even Violet realizes that Mary needs to step up because letting Robert run the estate unchecked is likely to cause another disaster (though she’d never be that blunt about it). > [@twickster](#): > > My understanding is that the model is fundamentally different in the UK, and that a two- or three-season contract is pretty much standard. Yep, the 7+ contracts that get signed before the pilot is filmed don’t exist in the UK. And I doubt anybody expected this show to last beyond 2 series and a Christmas special when the original contracts were being issued. > [@Suse](#): > > I think Thomas wants to be Robert’s valet again and is forging an alliance with Edna toward that goal… That doesn’t make any sense; being Robert’s valet would actually be a _demotion_ from his current position, under-butler. Right now Barrow is the number 2 male servant and he’s literally a heartbeat away from being butler of Downton Abbey. _Carson_ should have more to worry about than Bates. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > …I was bit confused as well on that. I assumed it was still under a Fee Tail, ie, only go to men. So how does Matthew’s will go around that. The entail no longer applies because Cora’s dowry is gone. Matthew put his inheritance into the estate, and he was smart enough not to let it be entailed. That’s why he was able to will his share to Mary, and didn’t have to pass it directly to George. > [@Shodan](#): > > …And I liked the sudden twist where the nanny, who was being set up as an innocent being bullied by Thomas, and then was revealed as being neglectful towards one of the babies in her charge and a bad person. I would have liked to see Lady Grantham go even more Mama Bear about her grandchild and have her thrown out instantly, without a night’s grace… It’s they been at the London house instead of in the country I bet Cora would done just that. The really odd thing is that Cora had to have Mrs Hughes fetch a maid to sit with the babies. Nanny wouldn’t have been working alone in a household like that. She’d have a nursery maid to assist her (which would also mean there’d _never_ be any plausible excuse for leaving her charges alone). :dubious: Who was the maid pushing the other Sybil’s carriage outside? > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > In the first season, it’s made clear that Matthew inherited not only the title but Cora’s money as well. Violet was ready to break the title just to let Mary have the money. I thought that was interesting that she valued Downton more than the title of Earl. That’s because there’s no possible way to make Mary the Countess of Grantham in her own right (well theoretically a private act of Parliament could). Breaking the entail, which was only placed on the estate less than 25 years ago was a possibility. And without said entail then Mary would’ve been her father’s heir at least as far as the estate was concerned (Matthew would’ve been stuck with an empty title & become somewhat of a laughingstock). Granted breaking the entail would’ve also required a private act of Parliament, but at least there’s precedent for that. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_from\_CB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/278dde/32.png) [@Alex\_from\_CB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_from_CB)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/69 "2014-01-07T00:02:07Z")
Mary needs three things. #1. A ham sandwich every single day or some extra gravy on her chicken fried steak at the very least. #2. Some Vitamin D. When the sun is shining she need to get her skimpiest bikini and… get some vitamin D. Get some exercise. Put on her best… _Yorkshire Junior College_ sweatshirt and run a few laps around the house. A few weeks of that regiment and she’s out prowling for the next Matthew. A guess here about publisher guy who might _go German_ in order to get divorced… He stops into a beer hall in Munich for a quick Spaten and oops… a violent political act occurs and he gets mixed in with the riff raff and is jailed. Such a…struggle. Just a guess… I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/70 "2014-01-07T09:17:08Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The entail no longer applies because Cora’s dowry is gone. Matthew put his inheritance into the estate, and he was smart enough not to let it be entailed. That’s why he was able to will his share to Mary, and didn’t have to pass it directly to George. Not quite. Although, to be fair, the script was extremely vague about the exact details of the deal between Matthew and the Earl. But the presumption must be that the Earl broke the entail in order to do so. That’s because transferring ownership of parts of the estate to someone else is precisely what the entail was (theoretically) supposed to prevent, especially if this was to pay off debts. A rather crucial point that Julian Fellowes seemed to overlook completely when they were considering selling Downton. But then breaking the entail would always have been trivially easy… > [@alphaboi867](#): > > Granted breaking the entail would’ve also required a private act of Parliament, but at least there’s precedent for that. No, breaking entails almost never required an Act of Parliament and there had been a simple legal procedure for doing so since the fifteenth century. Entails were intended to be broken and most families routinely replaced them every generation, most often as part of the heir’s marriage settlement. By this period, all the Earl would have had to do was to sign a disentailing assurance and then enrol it in Chancery. All the indications are that Fellowes has never realised this. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/71 "2014-01-07T11:46:05Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Attractive?? She’s a troublemaking loose cannon and a complete spoiled brat. She needs to die. None of those affect physical appearance. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/72 "2014-01-07T11:57:57Z")
> [@APB](#): > > All the indications are that Fellowes has never realised this. I think it’s clear that the Earl’'s solicitor, Murray, just isn’t a very good attorney. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/73 "2014-01-07T12:20:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think it’s clear that the Earl’'s solicitor, Murray, just isn’t a very good attorney. Considering the quality of their doctor, it seems as though none of the self-employed middle-class professionals on the show are any good at their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/74 "2014-01-07T13:27:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Considering the quality of their doctor, it seems as though none of the self-employed middle-class professionals on the show are any good at their jobs. IIRC, if they had listened to the local doctor instead of the specialist brought in, Sybil would have lived and they would have had to find another way to write her out of the show. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/75 "2014-01-07T13:59:29Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > None of those affect physical appearance. They certainly affect _attractiveness_ of the person, as in, do I want to get anywhere near them? ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/76 "2014-01-07T17:49:46Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I got Violet. I’m damned comfortable with that. Heh. Lavender is Violet. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/77 "2014-01-07T18:11:07Z")
I have a theory on the incredibly boring love rectangle between Daisy, Ivy, Alfred, and Jimmy: Things are being set up for something interesting that happens later. Like Alfred going off the deep end and murdering someone. Here’s my reasoning: They don’t have much of a story going on downstairs, you know? Edna colluding with Thomas to be jerky just isn’t enough, and that sort of thing is tiresome already. They need something big to happen. So let’s look at what’s going on in the love rectangle, specifically between the two footmen. Alfred thinks Jimmy is courting Ivy just to annoy him. Is he? Our main evidence is that Alfred says so. Even if it started that way, it seems like Jimmy is genuinely interested at this point. But we saw Alfred insist that Jimmy is paying attention to her ONLY to bully him _several times_. And that seems like a Chekov’s Gun to me. Is he, perhaps, imagining some of it? A bit delusional? We see Jimmy picking on Alfred in other ways too and he is not dealing well with any of it. He can’t let it go or let it roll off his back. It is significantly affecting his mental state, and it looks like he’s going to blow in one way or another. If he’s mentally ill/psychotic, then who knows what he might do? He’s a close relative of O’Brien’s, and while she may not have been psychotic, she certainly wasn’t right in the head, and she could NOT let things go. Bullying is a big topic in the news right now in the US. If it is the same in the UK, bringing it in to the show might make sense. A murder in the servant’s quarters would certainly be dramatic! Jimmy or Ivy would be the likely victims. Can you imagine how Carson would react to finding out that such a situation had developed right under his nose? The whole staff would be devastated. I can just see the family’s reactions. What a disgraceful thing to have happen! Lord Grantham would huff and puff. Cora would get the vapors. Mary would sniff haughtily. Edith would secretly find it delightfully scandalous. Violet would say something pithily apropos. Branson would be trying to get everyone to behave in a sensible manner. Mrs. Crawley would, of course, do the heavy lifting in the clean-up and hush-up efforts in an efficient and businesslike manner. If Jimmy is the victim, maybe they can figure out some sort of job for Molesly too. It might be a demotion for him, but better than manual labor. Molesly’s not a prideful sort anyway. Theory 2: This is less interesting, but what if Cora is developing a medical issue that is affecting her already limited cognitive abilities, such as dementia, early onset Alzheimers, a slow moving brain tumor, or something similar. She’s always been kind of dumb, but hiring Edna was ridiculous. We saw her being smart this episode (firing Nanny), but also was stupid in her reactions to Thomas. The above types of mental issues don’t hit all at once, so it’s reasonable for her to be erratic in this regard. She’s so coddled and dopey that it might take a while for anybody to notice that there is something really wrong. I don’t know how they treated people with issues like that in those days. Would be interesting to see. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/78 "2014-01-07T18:34:37Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > IIRC, if they had listened to the local doctor instead of the specialist brought in, Sybil would have lived and they would have had to find another way to write her out of the show. Yeah but that was practically the only time the local doctor was right. If Robert recommended someone to me I’d go with the other candidate just on general principle. Violet and even Mary seem to be far better judges of competency and character than he is. The only time he’s shown to be a decent judge in this matter is with Bates. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/79 "2014-01-07T18:37:44Z")
[Downton Abbbey on Facebook](http://happyplace.someecards.com/28432/downton-abbey-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-1). (These things crack me up!) ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/80 "2014-01-07T18:45:28Z")
Sooo…did any of you find yourselves wondering if Daisy might have been pregnant? 😛 > **[Could this Downton Abbey actress have been several months postpartum when...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=697171)** > > I’m trying to figure out if this actress (Sophie McShera \[Daisy\] from Downton Abbey) might have had a baby and given it up for adoption or something (or else keeping it really, REALLY secret). Prior to Downton Abbey she was in a season of the show... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=5)