# Downton Abbey S4 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844 "2013-03-02T19:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/121 "2014-01-13T16:05:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So when I say to my wife, “That guy [rapist] needs a good killing” she says, “that’s exactly why Anna can’t tell Bates!” Apparently I am out of touch with how it must suck to be a woman in that position, first raped, then can’t tell anyone. At least tell the police. Would that accomplish anything? Bates would still find out then, and probably do some killing. After listening to the interview with “Anna” (the actress) posted above, I gather that at that time the assumption would be that in some way she was asking for it. IOW rape could not happen to a “nice” girl. As for the guy, the thinking would be “he’s a man and can’t help himself.” Her being raped, or in the thinking of the time “allowing herself to be raped,” would bring disgrace upon her, the household, her husband, her family, and worst of all, her reputation would be destroyed. And back then, her reputation was everything. I know… hard to comprehend. But likely she would be seen as the wrongdoer and he would just slide by. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/122 "2014-01-13T16:11:43Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Do they really just not like Edith? They really, really don’t. Poor middle child. > [@John Mace](#): > > Would they really invite someone to their home (the opera singer) and NOT invite them to socialize? Was she supposed to be there purely for entertainment? I’m missing why she was even there in the first place. She was hired. Lord Grantham mentions that she’s expensive. That plot touched close to home because that bullshit still happens today. My aunt threw a party, invited an opera singer friend of hers, but demanded she sing, and treated her not like a party guest but more like an outsider/hire. My aunt was being racist, but that translates into “Australian” and “performer class” of yesteryear. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/123 "2014-01-13T16:53:03Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > The baptism scene is in _Godfather II_, not surprisingly, since that was a good movie. [/nitpick] Oops! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/124 "2014-01-13T16:54:55Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > The Anna Bates attack was pretty brutal, and daresay, realistic. Apparently when it was first broadcast they got a lot of fire for it, but I think this is going to be very interesting moving forward. As much as we like to look back to 1922 with rose colored glasses, this was not a time to have any rights as a woman. I am grieving for the fun loving sweet Anna and all young women like her, since pigs like Green took that all away. The shame Anna would bring on Downton would be unbearable, so it will be interesting to see how she and Bates copes with this latest huge elephant in the room when it comes to their marriage and intimacy. I have to admit that, as one not normally affected by such scenes, this one grabbed me by the heart. I mean, Anna is the sweat heart of the Abbey! Bates, now has more reason than Thomas’ lying to go on a rampage. Anna, can’t tell anyone because Bates will end up in jail for killing the rapist. But, Bates knows something is wrong and the drama will be what follows as he tries to find out. I wonder if Bates himself will be accused of abusing Anna for the incident with Cora’s dress? What a web we have spun! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/125 "2014-01-13T16:57:50Z")
I would have a very hard time voting to convict a person for killing the man who raped his wife. Just saying. Did England use juries back then? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/126 "2014-01-13T17:19:14Z")
Bates wouldn’t have to actually outright murder the bastard. He could arrange an accident. Hell, all of the servants (maybe even Thomas) would probably participate in a scheme to kill and/or castrate the offender. Sort of a Murder on the Orient Express scheme. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/127 "2014-01-13T17:23:40Z")
Grantham’s reaction to Dame Nellie Melba baffled me as well. She’s a superstar. WTF is his problem with speaking to her? If I had hired Lady Gaga to sing at my party, my chief concern would be not making a fool of myself in front of her, not making sure she sits in the basement with the cleaning lady. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/128 "2014-01-13T17:49:15Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Grantham’s reaction to Dame Nellie Melba baffled me as well. She’s a superstar. WTF is his problem with speaking to her? If I had hired Lady Gaga to sing at my party, my chief concern would be not making a fool of myself in front of her, not making sure she sits in the basement with the cleaning lady. They should have made the reasons for this more clear. Their views of performing artists were VERY different than our views. Back in the day, performers were viewed as unsavory types, more akin to gypsies and other itinerants than anything. A singer might be viewed as even less respectable than a housemaid. Nellie Melba, who was a real person, was one of the biggest stars in the world, and while the old-school aristocracy might have loved to hear her sing, they would not have been comfortable having such a person at their table. This was changing by the 1920s, which is why you saw the difference of opinion on the matter. That’s also why Carson’s background in the performing arts was so shocking. He’s the epitome of respectability, so it was really surprising that he would have debased himself to such a degree. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/129 "2014-01-13T17:49:38Z")
It wasn’t Lord Grantham’s problem, it was Carson’s – he was the one who decided she wasn’t suitable to sit with the family. Which she wasn’t, because she’d been hired to perform – no different than any other tradesperson, in Carson’s view. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/130 "2014-01-13T17:54:41Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > It wasn’t Lord Grantham’s problem, it was Carson’s – he was the one who decided she wasn’t suitable to sit with the family. Carson made the decision, but Lord Grantham agreed, as did the Dowager Countess, who exclaimed “What on earth would you talk about?” or somesuch. That was a coded way of saying that the lower-caste person had no place at the table. At the dinner, Lord Grantham was surprised that she knew her claret, which is an upper-class sort of thing, and was more accepting of her after that. She was also mannerly and charming, which such closed-minded people might not have expected. Look at Branson, who still acts a clod a lot of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/131 "2014-01-13T18:47:26Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Bates wouldn’t have to actually outright murder the bastard. He could arrange an accident. Hell, all of the servants (maybe even Thomas) would probably participate in a scheme to kill and/or castrate the offender. Sort of a Murder on the Orient Express scheme. Shades of **Gosford Park** … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/132 "2014-01-13T18:50:22Z")
Well, if they had hired the opera singer to perform, then I don’t see why they’d have to invite her to dinner unless they wanted to. For some reason I thought she was a guest who had volunteered to sing. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/133 "2014-01-13T18:52:43Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > It wasn’t Lord Grantham’s problem, it was Carson’s – he was the one who decided she wasn’t suitable to sit with the family. > > Which she wasn’t, because she’d been hired to perform – no different than any other tradesperson, in Carson’s view. > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Carson made the decision, but Lord Grantham agreed, as did the Dowager Countess, who exclaimed “What on earth would you talk about?” or somesuch. Lord Grantham approved it, but very much in a “fine, whatever” sort of way. And his mother, well, you know she’s from a previous era. ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/134 "2014-01-13T19:46:17Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Lord Grantham approved it, but very much in a “fine, whatever” sort of way. And his mother, well, you know she’s from a previous era. Dowager to Lord Grantham, last episode: “When you talk like that, it makes me want to call nanny to put you to bed”. Cracked me up!!! Course he’d probably like it now!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/135 "2014-01-13T19:59:54Z")
Why is it a foregone conclusion that Bates would kill the guy anyway? Isn’t that as bad as saying the rapist couldn’t help himself — Bates is a man, he’s gonna kill. :rolleyes: I mean, who wouldn’t WANT to, but surely he’s got enough free will left in his reptilian brain to understand how badly it would hurt Anna to just get himself hanged when she worked her ass off to free him from an unjust conviction? :mad: The opera singer: Read some of the Jeeves and Wooster books for more about the unsuitability of performers as upper-crust companions! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/136 "2014-01-13T20:09:12Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Lord Grantham approved it, but very much in a “fine, whatever” sort of way. And his mother, well, you know she’s from a previous era. Yes, true. He didn’t like it, but yielded to others, so I guess you could fairly say he approved it or didn’t approve it because he disapproved of approving it. Heh. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if they had hired the opera singer to perform, then I don’t see why they’d have to invite her to dinner unless they wanted to. For some reason I thought she was a guest who had volunteered to sing. Another thing they should have made clearer. I happened to know who she was because of my academic background, but the vast majority of viewers would have no idea who Nellie Melba was or what a big deal it was to have her perform in the house! She was no random opera singer. She was hugely famous. They weren’t kidding when they said that seeing her perform would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the kitchen staff. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/137 "2014-01-13T21:17:01Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Why is it a foregone conclusion that Bates would kill the guy anyway? Isn’t that as bad as saying the rapist couldn’t help himself — Bates is a man, he’s gonna kill. :rolleyes: > > I mean, who wouldn’t WANT to, but surely he’s got enough free will left in his reptilian brain to understand how badly it would hurt Anna to just get himself hanged when she worked her ass off to free him from an unjust conviction? :mad: > > The opera singer: Read some of the Jeeves and Wooster books for more about the unsuitability of performers as upper-crust companions! 🙂 Oh Ellen, noooooo. Men frown on that more than you think. In that time period a brutal rape would have triggered a lynching. He’d be taken away from the building and nothing would ever be said about it. If the police came around the story from the lord of the manner would have been: we took him out back for a great thrashing and he limped away on his own 2 feet. No idea where he was off to after that. Lots of nodding heads. Didn’t call you because we didn’t want the scandal. End of investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/138 "2014-01-13T21:56:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh Ellen, noooooo. Men frown on that more than you think. In that time period a brutal rape would have triggered a lynching. He’d be taken away from the building and nothing would ever be said about it. If the police came around the story from the lord of the manner would have been: we took him out back for a great thrashing and he limped away on his own 2 feet. No idea where he was off to after that. Lots of nodding heads. Didn’t call you because we didn’t want the scandal. End of investigation. That sounds more like modern romantic notions of what life would have been like. In reality, I really \*really \*doubt the lord of the manor would conspire to kill a servant who raped a housemaid. It would have been more like what ThelmaLou posted: > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Her being raped, or in the thinking of the time “allowing herself to be raped,” would bring disgrace upon her, the household, her husband, her family, and worst of all, her reputation would be destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/139 "2014-01-13T22:25:08Z")
> [@Ellen Cherry](#): > > Why is it a foregone conclusion that Bates would kill the guy anyway? Isn’t that as bad as saying the rapist couldn’t help himself — Bates is a man, he’s gonna kill. Bates is a violent man who has seen battle and killed before (I totally think he killed his wife). Anna is his life. He would kill for her in a heartbeat. Not because he is a man, but because he is Bates, a name synonymous with foreboding doom. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/140 "2014-01-13T23:07:05Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > Bates is a violent man who has seen battle and killed before (I totally think he killed his wife). Anna is his life. He would kill for her in a heartbeat. Not because he is a man, but because he is Bates, a name synonymous with foreboding doom. Exactly, it’s not that any man would kill his wife’s rapist, it’s that _Bates_ would kill his wife’s rapist. A few pages ago, before I had seen the rape episode, I suggested that Thomas had put himself in harm’s way from Bates merely by implicating Anna in damaging Cora’s dress. If badmouthing Anna is enough to bring down the wrathy of Bates, it’s not hard to imagine how he would react to a rapist. I thought it was clever to have Bates actually see Anna after the rape, with the bruises and the replaced dress. It removes any possibility that he will think that she somehow consented to the attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=8)