# Downton Abbey S4 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844 "2013-03-02T19:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/161 "2014-01-15T00:41:08Z")
The thing I found appalling was Grantham throwing a lavish “old-style” house party when living off Matthew’s (and now George’s) money and with huge death duties right around the corner. Surely the examples of the other well-bred guests should’ve been enough to show him that he shouldn’t be throwing around money he doesn’t have. The Duchess without a lady’s maid and what’s-his-name whose family sold their estate and is living in the dower house should have been an illustration of what could happen. And to lose a significant amount of money at cards! And yet he thinks he’s the only one qualified to manage the family estate and fortune. George will be lucky if he doesn’t end up in a council house going to a local school. StG ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/162 "2014-01-15T01:13:20Z")
-deleted- ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/163 "2014-01-15T03:44:30Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > And to lose a significant amount of money at cards! I wish they had given the actual amount he lost. Are we talking “a weekend getaway to Brighton” or are we talking “a vacation house in Brighton”? And nobody can figure out that the guy is a cardsharp? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/164 "2014-01-15T03:48:48Z")
I think for all their elegance, they are extremely unworldly and sheltered. Rather naive to the majority of the way the world is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/165 "2014-01-15T06:03:05Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I think for all their elegance, they are extremely unworldly and sheltered. Rather naive to the majority of the way the world is. To maintain wealth requires investing money properly and spending within your means. He’s not doing either and has lost multiple fortunes. Of course, he seemed to be putting money in things that were noteworthy at the time but not necessarily money spinners. railroads being one of them. The modern version would be aircraff. If you want to make a billion dollars invest 2 billion in aviation. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/166 "2014-01-15T06:23:00Z")
> [@kath94](#): > > I think the prison skill he was referring to was forgery. Right. thanks. I wonder if his words mean a bit more than that as the season progresses. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/167 "2014-01-15T06:38:35Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > I must have a cold, cold heart, but the dramatic scene reminded me of the Baptism from _The Godfather_ as well … in that I imagined Fellowes sitting around trying to come up with a traumatic “terrible crime/high art” combo that would be like the famous movie. Arson and a symphony concert? Embezzlement and a chamber quartet? A ha, rape and an opera aria! I am not nearly as bothered as some by the plot device, since a many great film makers have paid homage to Coppola by using similar simultaneous actions to illustrate in real time what may or may not have occurred at the exactly the same time. The most beloved and the most heinous. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/168 "2014-01-15T18:00:50Z")
I didn’t find it formulaic either, but effective. I also was reminded that Fellows was behind _Gosford Park_ with the use of the names of visitors’ servants by their names downstairs, something I learned there. I remember Maggie Smith playing a money-poor (but presumably upper-crust) guest, wallowing in the luxuries permitted by visiting the wealthy. “Oooo, yummy!” she says, upon being served breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/169 "2014-01-15T23:03:00Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > The baptism scene is in _Godfather II_, not surprisingly, since that was a good movie. [/nitpick] > > And I’ll add to the chorus of “whoa!” on the rape. Double-nitpick…it was Godfather I. Third time’s the charm. My apologies for bumping the thread on something so trivial, but I’m 3 days behind in my DVR. So I’ll just add: I loved this episode more than any one since Season 1. I was hoping against hope that Anna had successfully fought off her attacker, but I doubt that was the case. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_from\_CB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/278dde/32.png) [@Alex\_from\_CB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_from_CB)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/170 "2014-01-15T23:55:11Z")
I also think Bates line about having learned a lot in prison will mean more than just the forgery of the IOU for Molesley. The Opera singing/rape did not remind me of The Godfather christening occurring while all family business gets settled. However, when Bates settles his family business with this fellow, Sollozzo, I mean, this fellow Green…I suspect Mr. Green will end up sleeping with fishes, having the veal at Louis’ Italian restaurant in The Bronx or just having a nice massage like his American relative…Moe. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/171 "2014-01-16T15:45:41Z")
A “_Downton Abbey_ Law” to let women inherit noble titles?: [The 'Downton Abbey Law' Would Let British Women Inherit Titles : Parallels : NPR](http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/01/15/262741340/the-downton-abbey-law-would-let-british-women-inherit-titles) ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/172 "2014-01-16T16:34:15Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > I must have a cold, cold heart, but the dramatic scene reminded me of the Baptism from _The Godfather_ as well … in that I imagined Fellowes sitting around trying to come up with a traumatic “terrible crime/high art” combo that would be like the famous movie. Arson and a symphony concert? Embezzlement and a chamber quartet? A ha, rape and an opera aria! I must have an even colder heart, because I thought the whole juxtaposition was a crack about how terrible opera is. Someone (Robert?) earlier in the episode referred to it as a grown woman screeching, and lo-and-behold, by the end of the episode, it provides the perfect cover for the sound of a woman being raped because it sounds exactly the same. Ba-dum-tss. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/173 "2014-01-16T22:52:01Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > A “_Downton Abbey_ Law” to let women inherit noble titles?: [The 'Downton Abbey Law' Would Let British Women Inherit Titles : Parallels : NPR](http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/01/15/262741340/the-downton-abbey-law-would-let-british-women-inherit-titles) If the recent changes to the royal succession affected peerages as well then Lord Fellowes wife would’ve been able to succeed her uncle as 4th Countess Kitchener. Since it didn’t the title went extinct. IIRC _Spain_ has changed their laws to let women inherit noble titles on the same basis as men. I don’t think any of the other European monarchies care about noble titles, even though must have changed royal succession rules. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/174 "2014-01-17T00:18:52Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Double-nitpick…it was Godfather I. Third time’s the charm. > > My apologies for bumping the thread on something so trivial, but I’m 3 days behind in my DVR. So I’ll just add: I loved this episode more than any one since Season 1. I was hoping against hope that Anna had successfully fought off her attacker, but I doubt that was the case. I loved this episode as well, even though Anna didn’t, at least we have some meat to the Bates’ story again. It would have been an utter bore to simply go back to just continually exchange barbs with Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/175 "2014-01-17T23:03:32Z")
My wife and I are enjoying this season of DA, although of course it has its ups and downs. I particularly liked the cardsharp subplot and its outcome. Sweet. And while I don’t usually foresee major plot twists, after the “May not be suitable for all viewers” warning at the beginning of the episode, and the visiting valet flirting with Anna… I called it. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > …Thomas causing more trouble? Have the people at Downton MET him? If I lived there and he ever told me ANTYHING about ANYONE that was not obviously and immediately factually verifiable I would always instantly assume he was lying… Absolutely. Thomas should’ve been gone for good after he was caught stealing wine anyway; they only keep him around because Fellowes needs an ongoing conniver on the premises. > [@GargoyleWB](#): > > The test gave me Cora, I’m strangely ok with that. She’s the samurai of the series, calm and rational, but ready to behead any betrayers in an instant. “Anna, be a dear and wipe the blood from my katana for me, I’d like to retire early this evening. And see what Mrs Patmore could do with this extra strewn viscera.” Both my wife and I got Cora, too. I love the samurai concept! > [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > The brutality of the scene juxtaposed with the opera concert reminded me of other times this has been used effectively: the baptism scene in Godfather… and (strangely) the alien opera singer in The Fifth Element. Also a brutal fight scene in _Raging Bull_, set to a sublime piece of Mascagni’s, IIRC: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OvsVSWB4TI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OvsVSWB4TI) > [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > …Here’s PBS’s Masterpiece page on this episode, including an interview with Joanna Froggatt, who plays Anna: [PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/programs/features/news/downton-abbey-s4-e2-reactions-episode-2/). I was very interested to see this - thanks. Glad the actress was totally on-board. > [@Bains\_Fan](#): > > I have to admit that, as one not normally affected by such scenes, this one grabbed me by the heart. I mean, Anna is the [sweet]heart of the Abbey!.. What a web we have spun! [emphasis added] Is that you, Lord Julian? > [@Bone](#): > > I would have a very hard time voting to convict a person for killing the man who raped his wife. Just saying. Did England use juries back then? Yes. Juries date back to Ancient Greece, and in England were formalized in the 1300s (they’re used much more in the U.S. today than in England). But a jury trial would be very risky, given Bates’s past, and the trial would likely be damaging both to Downton Abbey’s and Anna’s public standing, to say nothing of the ordeal Anna would face in testifying. BTW, who called out Anna’s name as she left the building right afterwards? Bates, the rapist, or someone else? Was that meant to be ambiguous? > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > …I happened to know who she was because of my academic background, but the vast majority of viewers would have no idea who Nellie Melba was or what a big deal it was to have her perform in the house! She was no random opera singer. She was hugely famous. They weren’t kidding when they said that seeing her perform would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the kitchen staff. _Especially_ for them - both Peach Melba and Melba toast were named for her: > **[Peach Melba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peach_melba)** > > Peach Melba (French: pêche Melba, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[pɛʃ mɛlba\]) is a dessert of peaches and raspberry sauce with vanilla ice cream. It was invented in 1892 or 1893 by the French chef Auguste Escoffier at the Savoy Hotel, London, to honour the Australian soprano Nellie Melba. > In 1892, operatic soprano Nell... > **[Melba toast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melba_toast)** > > Melba toast is a dry, crisp and thinly sliced rusk, often served with soup and salad or topped with either melted cheese or pâté. It is named after Dame Nellie Melba, the stage name of Australian opera singer Helen Porter Mitchell. Its name is thought to date from 1897, when the singer was very ill and it became a staple of her diet. The toast was created for her by a chef who was also a fan of her, Auguste Escoffier, who also created the Peach Melba dessert for her. The hotel proprietor Cé Mel... > [@Bone](#): > > It was made explicit that Bates didn’t kill his wife. She committed suicide to spite him because she’s that evil. That’s my personal theory, too, but I don’t recall that it was ever 100% definitively established, was it? > [@Magiver](#): > > The “little people” would do the lynching. The lord of the manor just doesn’t want the scandal. > > Spoiler about what happens… Please reread the OP. NO SPOILERS of any kind until each week’s episode has aired. Thanks! > [@Andiethewestie](#): > > …Even some of the male guests simply left the concert and made a bit of fun of Opera… Wasn’t it Just Not Done to walk out while a singer was mid-screech? Seemed very, very rude. At least wait for a break between songs. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/176 "2014-01-18T02:23:12Z")
It was Bates who called after Anna so they could walk home together, but she didn’t want to walk with him or even have him touch her. ---
**Author:** ![Bains\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bains\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bains_Fan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/177 "2014-01-18T18:47:53Z")
Because of football, I will be avoiding the forum until I see episode 3. Probably Monday or Tuesday. But, I was wondering. It seems the rape of Anna has taken the _sparkle_ out of the show. This is the first time I haven’t watched it at least twice since S1E1. I guess you could call it good writing if it effected me that much, but seems more, to me, like a cheap trick. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/178 "2014-01-19T03:06:41Z")
I watched Gosford Park for the thousandth time yesterday and I find that really sucks a lot of the luster off of DA, what with all the recycling of plots and characters. The fake valet/actor even tried to assault Merida, like this guy did successfully to Anna. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/179 "2014-01-19T05:11:41Z")
There’s a brief story in the latest (Jan. 27) issue of _Time_ magazine about Lady Edith’s role as a proto-feminist. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844/180 "2014-01-19T07:34:35Z")
> [@Bains\_Fan](#): > > Because of football, I will be avoiding the forum until I see episode 3. Probably Monday or Tuesday. But, I was wondering. It seems the rape of Anna has taken the _sparkle_ out of the show. This is the first time I haven’t watched it at least twice since S1E1. > > I guess you could call it good writing if it effected me that much, but seems more, to me, like a cheap trick. It bothered me enough to read forward in the plot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s4-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/651844.md?page=10)