# Downton Abbey S5 - spoiler-free until broadcast in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 28, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244 "2014-07-28T15:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/441 "2015-02-23T21:21:57Z")
I was wondering about the ranks of the various titles and found a good cite which may be of interest to some of you. It goes: King Prince Duke Marquis (e.g. Shrimpy) Earl (e.g. Robert) Viscount Baron (e.g. Lord Merton) > **[British Titles and Orders of Precedence](http://www.edwardianpromenade.com/resources/titles-and-orders-of-precedence/)** > > The British title and its order of precedence is the most baffling, yet simple concept on the planet. Children of nobility and those who wished to become a part of it had the following concepts dri… ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/442 "2015-02-23T21:32:21Z")
> [@Miss\_Woodhouse](#): > > … Rose’s dress was stunning. Loved it, although the Princess Leia-ish roses were a bit too much. . Pure Ozma (of Oz). [![](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vAo3quWOuEo/U2A3UzoHVaI/AAAAAAAAAzQ/gIBZFGOr4gE/s1600/OzmaPortrait_OzmaofOzfrontispiece.jpg) ](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vAo3quWOuEo/U2A3UzoHVaI/AAAAAAAAAzQ/gIBZFGOr4gE/s1600/OzmaPortrait_OzmaofOzfrontispiece.jpg) [![](http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ozwikia/images/6/60/Ozmaofoz.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120503213830) ](http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ozwikia/images/6/60/Ozmaofoz.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120503213830) ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Woodhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/443 "2015-02-23T22:42:15Z")
Yes, Rose’s roses were very much typical of the time. I just didn’t think they looked good. A wreath of flowers would also have been fashionable and would have looked better on the bride. Just my personal sartorial observation. Can I say again how awful Rose’s mother is? I’m so glad Fellows sent her off to India where he couldn’t drag her back into DA happenings. She would not be a fun character to have around. I hope she goes wandering off a pier somewhere so he can’t use her evil for plot finagling in the future. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/444 "2015-02-24T01:08:04Z")
I was surprised Carson tactlessly put Shrimpie & Bitchy on the spot by asking about their servants right at the curb, when (1) he could see they didn’t have any with them, & (2) had already surmised with Mrs. Hughes that they had no servants anymore. It seemed intentional – leftover feelings from the O’Brien business?! ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/445 "2015-02-24T01:48:28Z")
I though it was rather nifty the way the death of Isis storyline and the Mrs. Patmore’s nephew story line linked up in this episode. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/446 "2015-02-24T01:59:43Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I was wondering about the ranks of the various titles and found a good cite which may be of interest to some of you. > > It goes: > King > Prince > Duke > Marquis (e.g. Shrimpy) > Earl (e.g. Robert) > Viscount > Baron (e.g. Lord Merton) > > [British Titles and Orders of Precedence – Edwardian Promenade](http://www.edwardianpromenade.com/resources/titles-and-orders-of-precedence/) Ok, so if Merton is “only” a baron, I’m confused. He’s the one marrying Matthew Crawley’s mother, right? So why is the Dowager Countess going to be equal to or lower than Mrs Crawley when Mrs Crawley becomes Lady Merton? Yes, Maggie Smith’s not married to the current earl, but wouldn’t she still outrank her? Or is it more that she’s worried about losing the friendship? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/447 "2015-02-24T02:12:43Z")
> [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > Ok, so if Merton is “only” a baron, I’m confused. He’s the one marrying Matthew Crawley’s mother, right? So why is the Dowager Countess going to be equal to or lower than Mrs Crawley when Mrs Crawley becomes Lady Merton? Yes, Maggie Smith’s not married to the current earl, but wouldn’t she still outrank her? Or is it more that she’s worried about losing the friendship? Isobel will be a Baroness and Violet a Countess which higher ranking. Violet just doesn’t want to lose a friend. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/448 "2015-02-24T02:27:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I kind of got the impression Thomas was attracted to the temporary footman. I think it was about 90% that, and 10% he just doesn’t like Denker. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > …I wonder if Rose would consider doing so? Would it have been heavily frowned on back then by her upper class English society? Or merely an acceptable eccentricity?.. I doubt Rose gives a damn whether converting to Judaism would be frowned upon her not; she sure didn’t about being see alone in public with a black man. And if Lord Sinderby wants Jewish grandchildren all he has to is dropt the subject in conversion in front of Susan, and let Susan get outraged and tell everyone Rose will convert over her dead body. Cue Rose rushing off to see the Chief Rabbi. 😉 > [@cwthree](#): > > Trivia: The [West London Synagogue of British Jews](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_London_Synagogue)was established in 1840 as a Reform synagogue. It’s not impossible that our fictional Lord Sinderby would have been affiliated. But overall, Reform Judaism doesn’t represent a significant share of European Jews in the way it does in the US. IIRC in the 1920s even the most liberal Jewish sects still insisted on matrilineal descent or conversion. I’ve no idea if the Aldridges are Reform or Orthodox, but none of them had any hesitation dining at Downton. The subject of kosher didn’t even come up. Also was anyone else really surprised that Rose could even get a blessing in the Church of England in 19240? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/449 "2015-02-24T02:35:22Z")
Socially though, Isobel would be running her own Great House, and would be the official hostess for a family of large fortune. Whereas Violet has only her “small” house and would not be entertaining in any large style. She probably has very little money compared to the budget that Isobel would suddenly be in charge of. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/450 "2015-02-24T03:08:20Z")
Can someone remind me why Rose’s parents are broke now? And if they are broke, they might be better off in Bombay. With the lower cost of servants, they could live just as well as the Crawleys on a government salary. And someone mentioned that Rose’s parents’ departure was delayed by the “hand over.” What are they referring to? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/451 "2015-02-24T03:21:57Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Socially though, Isobel would be running her own Great House, and would be the official hostess for a family of large fortune. Whereas Violet has only her “small” house and would not be entertaining in any large style. She probably has very little money compared to the budget that Isobel would suddenly be in charge of. This. Remember that asshole son said that Isobel would never be able to fill their mother’s shoes as the Great Lady of the county. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/452 "2015-02-24T03:50:39Z")
Another thing. When Mr Green died, Mr Bates was mysteriously away from Downton Abbey. But wasn’t Anna at the house the whole time? So this whole storyline should wrap up quickly. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/453 "2015-02-24T04:00:22Z")
Yeah, that’s what I immediately thought as well. Everyone could testify that Anna was nowhere near London at the time. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/454 "2015-02-24T04:19:50Z")
And if this thing is supposed to come down to Bates “confessing” to save Anna, would they really need to fall back on distinguishing those two by height? Bate is a large, masculine man. Anna a slender, petite woman. AND this is an era where androgynous clothes simply wasn’t an accepted thing. No way could a witness claim he’d mistaken one for the other. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/455 "2015-02-24T04:34:45Z")
Wasn’t Anna in London at the time? Wasn’t there something about her taking a message by hand instead of mailing it? Walking to the place? Am I conflating another storyline? I agree that it was Baxter. Or an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/456 "2015-02-24T04:44:45Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Baxter’s kindness and empathy towards him after he was a bully to her. She implored him to try to find a way to live a kinder life and tried to tell him he was deserving of happiness. That, perhaps–and good old fashioned gay lust for the new guy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/457 "2015-02-24T04:48:20Z")
He has been implicated in a bunch of rapes. Any of the victims could have done it. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/458 "2015-02-24T05:22:58Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > He has been implicated in a bunch of rapes. Any of the victims could have done it. Or they **all** did it like Murder on the Orient Express ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/459 "2015-02-24T05:38:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Can someone remind me why Rose’s parents are broke now? And if they are broke, they might be better off in Bombay. With the lower cost of servants, they could live just as well as the Crawleys on a government salary. Money would certainly go farther in India, but remember that diplomats are typically expected to entertain quite a bit as part of their job. Those expenses may not be reimbursed or covered by the Crown. A diplomat like Shrimpie might have had the exchange rate working in his favor, but he also very likely would have had to throw parties, receptions, etc. much more frequently than the Crawleys. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244/460 "2015-02-24T12:29:34Z")
> [@Quercus\_alba](#): > > That, perhaps–and good old fashioned gay lust for the new guy. 😉 Yup! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-s5-spoiler-free-until-broadcast-in-the-u-s/694244.md?page=24)