# Downton Abbey, Series 2 (PBS) \[Please, no unaired spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 13, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368 "2012-01-13T04:06:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/341 "2012-02-13T22:14:19Z")
> [@PeskiPiksi](#): > > Thinking about timelines… > > So it was established that Lady Sybil is 21 in 1919. Didn’t we see her first Season in the first series? If women usually “came out” at age eighteen (maybe that’s where I’m off here…), and her debut Season was the winter after the Titanic sank, means she was eighteenish in 1912-1913. Shouldn’t she be more like 23 by now? Nitpicking, I know, and maybe she was sixteen at the beginnning… > > And isn’t Lady Mary well into spinsterhood by now? Saying “you’re 21” doesn’t have to mean you’re exactly 21… it can mean you’re over 21 or you’ve passed your 21st birthday. As we used to say Back When, “I can do what I want–I’m free, white, and 21!” No offense intended to any racial or age groups. Mentioned for historical purposes only. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/342 "2012-02-13T22:17:12Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Saying “you’re 21” doesn’t have to mean you’re exactly 21… it can mean you’re over 21 or you’ve passed your 21st birthday. Good point. [QUOTE=ThelmaLou] As we used to say Back When, “I can do what I want–I’m free, white, and 21!” No offense intended to any racial or age groups. Mentioned for historical purposes only. [/QUOTE] I’ve had to stop myself from saying that so many times out of concern “They might not be familiar with that saying”. Politically correct or not, things you heard all the time in childhood have a way of sticking with you. (A thematically similar comment I’ve heard from black people “of a certain age” when told that they _have_ to do something is “The only things I _have_ to do are be black and die”, so it’s kind of reassuring it isn’t _just_ a white thing to mention race in a retort.) ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/343 "2012-02-13T22:32:23Z")
Re. the “suck up” parlance. This reminded me that in one scene Lord G. very obviously looked at the time on his wrist[watch] and said, “Good Lord, is that the time already?” It struck me as a possible anachronism. My very cursory research (on wikipedia, ha) says only that wristwatches “became popular in the 1920’s”. Would Lord G. have been sporting one in 1919? What do you think? Other observations about the dreckiness of Season 2 / last night’s ep: The handling of the 'flu sweeping through the manor seemed poorly done. Everyone got it at once? The relatively isolated population of the manor house got it? Would it not sweep through the masses / peasantry first and the resultant mortality rate be much more alarming than Dr. Clarkson’s demeanor conveyed? Seemed pretty contrived. Throughout this season, the servants’ lives seem to have become more and more filled with free time to romp off and go into town, go travelling, go visiting, go to parties, observances, concerts, weddings, funerals, try out different roles in jobs, feed the local urchins, and so forth. I know a recurring theme of the series is the changing face of the servant class and the crumbling of the rigid separation of servant / master, but come on! Their lives seem like they’re all at summer camp in the basement. The pacing / screenplay of the whole season seems a bit off on some of the subplots. For example, the Branson thing on last night’s ep. They meet in the garage, pledge love. Some scene where they come out to the world. They run off. Sybil is fetched back, pledging love (with Anna in tow, I might add; see above). It’s sort of unclear where Branson goes. Lord G. talks to him in a subsequent scene. There’s talk with Sybil at dinner. Branson shows up at the funeral. Showdown. Reconciliation. None of the timing of this is settled with me. It seems like working class bloke Branson just waltzes in whenever a dramatic moment is needed, with no regard for the undoubtedly difficult travel logistics an unemployed man must face. Very contrived exposition. For example: “Mother’s taken ill. Lavinia’s taken ill. Granny went home. Father is with mother. Sybil is seeing to mother. Edith’s gone for a walk. So, I guess it’s just you and me, Matthew, here in the room with the Victrola. And you with your newly working legs and stuff.” Seems like these sorts of bits could be a bit subtler ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/344 "2012-02-13T22:35:30Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > SPOILER: In the third season Lady Edith is going to become the companion of Downton’s visitor, a man in a blue box known only as ‘The Doctor’. > > All goes well until Cousin Isobel calls up friends at her refugee league, Torchwood, and has them open fire on the doctor’s blue box, after which people begin to think she’s in ill health for some reason. Nice. Shamelesly stolen from this scathing Guardian review of the final episode of [season two](http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/nov/06/downton-abbey-review) [What’s ahead in season three:] Lady Cora deciding she’s a lesbian and having an affair with Virginia Woolf. Lady Edith rushing off to Germany to befriend Hitler in jail. Lady Sybil joining the IRA. Lady Mary deciding that she’s actually Anastasia, the daughter of Tsar Nicholas. Lord Grantham taking legal advice to prevent Sir Richard disclosing the details of his grope. And Carson having the heart attack for which he has been waiting so long. . ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/345 "2012-02-13T22:42:21Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > As we used to say Back When, “I can do what I want–I’m free, white, and 21!” > No offense intended to any racial or age groups. Mentioned for historical purposes only. > [@Sampiro](#): > > I’ve had to stop myself from saying that so many times out of concern “They might not be familiar with that saying”. Politically correct or not, things you heard all the time in childhood have a way of sticking with you. (A thematically similar comment I’ve heard from black people “of a certain age” when told that they _have_ to do something is “The only things I _have_ to do are be black and die”, so it’s kind of reassuring it isn’t _just_ a white thing to mention race in a retort.) Glad to meet you, fellow Old Person. 😉 _\_ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/346 "2012-02-13T22:43:59Z")
> [@Archergal](#): > > Made no sense to me either, till I looked on page 239 of the same publication & saw this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Nurse, a curious term applied to competition in omnibuses. Two omnibuses are placed on the road to NURSE, or take care of, each opposition “bus,” one before, the other behind. Of course the central or NURSED bus has very little chance, unless it happens to be a favourite of the public… > > Who knew??? Exactly!! > [@](#): > > …When an omnibus is being nursed, the driver of the hindmost vehicle keeps so close to his opponent that the horses get their heads almost into the doorway. The nursed omnibus is then said to SUCK THE MOP. That’s right folks, it’s pre-automotive tailgating! [/hijack] We now return you to your previously scheduled Downton Abbey thread. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/347 "2012-02-13T22:45:12Z")
> [@drpepper](#): > > Other observations about the dreckiness of Season 2 / last night’s ep: The handling of the 'flu sweeping through the manor seemed poorly done. Everyone got it at once? **The relatively isolated population of the manor house** got it? Would it not sweep through the masses / peasantry first and the resultant mortality rate be much more alarming than Dr. Clarkson’s demeanor conveyed? Seemed pretty contrived. Well, it \*\*HAD \*\*recently been a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/348 "2012-02-13T22:45:33Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [re Sybil and Branson…] While she may really and truly love him… When Sybil told Branson her answer was “yes” I distinctly remember she said nothing at all about “love.” She explained that the answer was yes because she realized Branson could give her the life that she really wanted. But love was not mentioned at that time. Did she speak of loving him later? I don’t specifically recall. Or maybe someone else can tell me if she later talked of loving Branson? ---
**Author:** ![raindrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@raindrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindrop)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/349 "2012-02-13T22:51:24Z")
> [@Toucanna](#): > > I know I asked about this in a thread about the first series (which I can’t find now, of course). This one? [Downton Abbey (open spoilers)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584830) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/350 "2012-02-13T22:59:14Z")
> [@drpepper](#): > > Re. the “suck up” parlance. This reminded me that in one scene Lord G. very obviously looked at the time on his wrist[watch] and said, “Good Lord, is that the time already?” It struck me as a possible anachronism. My very cursory research (on wikipedia, ha) says only that wristwatches “became popular in the 1920’s”. Would Lord G. have been sporting one in 1919? What do you think? Not at all impossible, although I think a pocket watch would have been more usual. But during World War I, wristwatches were manufactured (e.g., by Gallet) for military use, and high-end _horlogers_ like Cartier and Girard Perregaux quickly took over the design in fancier forms for wealthy civilians as well. So yeah, wealthy nobleman with wristwatch in 1919 doesn’t strain credulity too much. But it would have been bigger and clunkier than a modern wristwatch. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/351 "2012-02-13T23:08:27Z")
Just rewatched the “finale”. _Look for the Silver Lining_: Matthew said he thinks the song is from a flop, but fictional characters aren’t always right. Also, although the episode starts in 1919, there is a title card that reads “three months later”, and Lavinia mentions that the wedding is to take place in “April”, so we could be into 1920 by the time of Matthew’s comment. However, I haven’t yet found data on the timing of new cases of Spanish flu breaking out in the UK in 1920. * * * Breakfast after the night of Sybil & Branson’s attempted elopement: Lord G is eating alone, as Sybil is “still indisposed”, Mary and Edith aren’t down yet and Lady G has gone to meet Isobel. Carson takes the chafing dish of kedgeree(?) back to kitchen to keep it warm. Jane comes in and tells Lord G she thinks he would be happier if she tendered her resignation. Lord G won’t accept it, saying she shouldn’t suffer because he behaved in an “ungentlemanly manner”. Carson, off-stage, clears his throat, and re-enters the breakfast room. Has he overheard Lord G? More importantly, would he have mentioned this to Mrs. Hughes? [QUOTE=PeskiPiksi] …So it was established that Lady Sybil is 21 in 1919. Didn’t we see her first Season in the first series? If women usually “came out” at age eighteen (maybe that’s where I’m off here…) [/quote] I think it varied, but it was from 16 to 18. [QUOTE=PeskiPiksi] [Sybil’s] debut Season was the winter after the Titanic sank… [/quote] Cite? 😉 I kid, I kid. I ask because I’m confused about it myself. I thought we heard Edith’s coming out mentioined during the first series. 😕 I don’t remember hearing about Sybil’s first season. Anyway, as others had metioned, I don’t think Sybil must needs be exactly 21 years old in 1919/20. Although, all my surmising about timelines may be shown to be faulty now that **raindrop** has located the thread about Series 1. Thanks, **raindrop**! [QUOTE=PeskiPiksi] And isn’t Lady Mary well into spinsterhood by now? [/quote] Yup, which is why she’s “settling” by marrying Sir Richard. Further, the loss of so many men in the war has limited her, and even younger women’s, marital opportunities. > [@Sampiro](#): > > {snip}…when/if Matthew becomes the Earl, I wonder if Isobel would have any title other than “Mrs. Crawley”. Neither she nor her late husband was born to one, but at the same time an Earl’s mother having no title is… ‘so terribly common’. You’re right that Isobel won’t acquire a title when Matthew becomes Earl, but I’m sure that, should the Dowager Countess be so inclined as to drop a word into the right ear, one would not be surprised to find a certain name on the Christmas honours list. [QUOTE=drpepper] {snip} The handling of the 'flu sweeping through the manor seemed poorly done. Everyone got it at once?.. [/quote] I’m having difficulty finding data on the direction in which the S.F. spread. The Wikipedia entry said returning military personnel were a vector. Given that Downton was used as a hospital…but if that’s the vector in this case, the S.F. seems to have taken its time getting there. :dubious: [QUOTE=drpepper] {snip} Sybil is fetched back [from her elopement], pledging love (with Anna in tow, I might add; see above). It’s sort of unclear where Branson goes…It seems like working class bloke Branson just waltzes in whenever a dramatic moment is needed, with no regard for the undoubtedly difficult travel logistics an unemployed man must face. [/quote] He and Sybil had fled in one of the cars belonging to Lord G. The next day, he drove the car back to the estate, then took a room at the Grantham Arms, where he would stay until Sybil was ready to leave Downton with him. The G.A. is where Branson and Lord G had the meeting during which Lord G offered money to Branson in exchange for leaving his daughter alone. Branson didn’t need to travel far once he was at the Grantham Arms, he could just walk to Downton, the churchyard, etc. > [@raindrop](#): > > {snip}…maybe someone else can tell me if [Sybil] later talked of loving Branson? When Sybil decided to go back to Downton instead of continuing on to Gretna Green, Branson commented that she had chosen to go back to “them” (I’m paraphrasing). She replied that he shouldn’t think her love was so shallow/weak as to die after being away from him for a few hours (I’m wildly paraphrasing). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/352 "2012-02-13T23:14:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …Speaking of titles, when/if Matthew becomes the Earl, I wonder if Isobel would have any title other than “Mrs. Crawley”. Neither she nor her late husband was born to one, but at the same time an Earl’s mother having no title is… ‘so terribly common’…[/SIZE] Nope, she’ll still be “_Mrs Reginald Crawley_”. She’s doesn’t seem like she’s the type to care. I’m not sure where the dates are coming from, but [the wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Downton_Abbey_characters) lists Lady Mary as being born in 1892, Lady Edith in 1894, and Lady Sybil in 1898. Even if someone is pulling stuff out of thin air these dates still work. The only problem is Lady Sybil at her first season in 1914 when she was only 16. Didn’t girls have to be 18 to be presented at court? ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/353 "2012-02-13T23:20:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > SPOILER: In the third season Lady Edith is going to become the companion of Downton’s visitor, a man in a blue box known only as ‘The Doctor’… Lady Edith: Doctor, I’d like to introduce you to my cousin, Isobel. The Doctor: Yes, I know who she is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/354 "2012-02-13T23:22:32Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Didn’t girls have to be 18 to be presented at court? Are you sure? Debutantes are generally 16. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/355 "2012-02-13T23:23:56Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The only problem is Lady Sybil at her first season in 1914 when she was only 16. Didn’t girls have to be 18 to be presented at court? Nope, even as late as the last debutante Court presentation in 1958, there were some seventeen-year-olds among the debs. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/356 "2012-02-13T23:25:51Z")
Missed the edit window! [QUOTE=Toucanna] …Carson, off-stage, clears his throat, and re-enters the breakfast room. Has he overheard Lord G?.. [/quote] Now that I think about it, AIUI, the butler was the only member of staff who was not required to knock before entering a room (except bedrooms/dressing rooms/baths, of course). So I guess my interpretation will have to be yes, he overheard Lord G. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/357 "2012-02-13T23:27:50Z")
I agree that the season has a whole has been… not great. But it’s still kinda fun in a soap opera way. But in this episode, what kept driving me batty was people doing incredibly indiscreet things RIGHT OUT IN THE OPEN! Come on! If you’re going to kiss someone you shouldn’t kiss, in the middle of a huge house with zillions of people and servants running around all the time, at least have the common sense to go into a room and close a door! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/358 "2012-02-13T23:32:39Z")
Violet had what may be the best line in the series last night… but I can’t remember the exact wording. Somebody help out? When Sybil announces her intention to run off with the chauffeur, Violet says oh-so-dryly WRT Richard Carlisle, “After Sybil and \\\, he’s practically a Hapsburg.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/359 "2012-02-13T23:46:00Z")
“I used to think Mary’s beau was a mésalliance but compared to this he’s practically a Hapsburg.” ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368/360 "2012-02-13T23:53:01Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > “I used to think Mary’s beau was a mésalliance but compared to this he’s practically a Hapsburg.” Oh yeah! THAT’S the one-- thanks! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/downton-abbey-series-2-pbs-please-no-unaired-spoilers/609368.md?page=19)