Yes but “all but the most formal” was still “not formal.”
Man may be the Earl of Grantham, but I doubt he’s regularly eating dinner with the King. I think it’s more that the Earl is the type of person who, in 1918, gets a dinner jacket and thinks, while he’s wearing it, that he’s being marvelously rebellious and innovative.
Jeeves might’ve raised an eyebrow.
[QUOTE=Toucanna]
I think! They’ve been telegraphing this since the first episode of the first series!
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I disagree. Butler and Housekeeper are kind of the father- and mother-figures to the staff. Naturally they enjoy a certain intimacy in their interactions that none of the rest of the staff shares. They are middle-aged, while the staff tend to be younger (not counting the personal servants - ladies’ maids and valets), and I think both Carson and Hughes (and any other good butler and housekeeper of a great house) feel as if they stand in loco parentis to the others. I think what you’re seeing is the result of that, not of romantic feelings on the part of either. They are peers in a very stratified society, with the shared responsibilities of both overseeing and looking after the staff. Who else would they share confidences with but each other?
That being said, butlers sometimes were married to or married either the cook or the housekeeper, especially as lifestyles changed and households might only have the two servants living in (and the daily help coming in to do the rougher housework and laundry). Opportunities for romance outside of the staff were few and far between, and romances between staff members were usually very much discouraged, although marriages could be accomodated (as they seem likely to be with Bates and Anna). Children of those marriages were very much discouraged, though, as it was not generally felt that a woman could be both a decent mother and decent maid. Since work hours were some fourteen plus hours a day, that’s probably none too unrealistic.
I disagree about his judgement of Ethel. While he’s sexist enough to blame her more than him, Carson has almost certainly lived a Monk’s life while in service. Unless he was married to the housekeeper there would have been little opportunity for him to have any social life at all. He clearly has almost paternal feelings toward Lady Mary, and has subsituted his care for The Family and The House for any real personal intimacy. He has controlled and quashed his own desires throughout his life; and probably assumes that a woman has nowhere near the same urges that a man does.
He therefore feels perfectly justified in judging Ethel harshly for her lapse. Saints are really difficult to live with. 
Yes, the butler & housekeeper were quasi-parental figures to the junior servants–who were often quite young & barely educated. Hardly wise in the ways of the world.
I can understand Carson’s disapproval of Ethel’s misbehavior. But he ought to have felt more upset that the young woman’s downfall occurred in the women’s area of the servant quarters. Allowing men in that area could lead to less consensual encounters. Or ruin the reputation of Downton Abbey. One would think that the presence of officers–many of whom were not all that badly wounded–would have called for greater vigilance on the part of senior staff.
This feeling is the source of Mrs Hughes’ wish to help poor, silly Ethel. But I really think the her seduction should have been taken up with The Lord & The Lady just after it was discovered. If Ethel was going to lose her job over it, the Major at least ought to have received a stern, man-to-man discussion from Lord Grantham. Bad form to boff somebody else’s servants. Although Grantham seems to have some stirrings about his own new maid…
Yes. Might be just the thing to tarnish the Earl’s halo, too.
In London of the 1930s? Given Bertie’s sartorial adventureness, I’d have to imagine that Bertie in black tie would have filled Jeeves with delight. And, if you’ll look, the tv version of Jeeves and Wooster pretty much always puts Bertie in a dinner jacket when he’s dressed for dinner:
They should have saved the first season mini-arc about Carson having once been a music hall performer for this season. It would have been more effective and jarring.
I’m of three minds regarding “Patrick Gordon.”
- He really is Patrick Crawley & his story stands. But I doubt it.
- He is Patrick’s friend Peter & he’s trying to scam the Crawleys ala Martin Guerre. Once he found that they’d learned of Patrick’s association with Peter, he scampered away in shame.
- He is Peter Gordon, but whatever shock he experienced with his injuries shook him up enought that he *thought *he was Patrick Crawley. Then he learned of the existence of Peter Gordon & shrank away in shame. (see reference to the movie “Unknown” with Liam Neeson.)
I think Number 2 alone.
With Martin Guerre (and Sommersby), both set before forensic science was even as evolved as in 1918, they still had intelligent ways of investigating by going to the village shoemaker and tailor. While his facial features are burned beyond recognition and Patrick was likely never fingerprinted, nothing about burns is going to significantly change the size of bones, and Patrick would absolutely have had his best clothes tailor made which means his measurements should be around somewhere in London or wherever his tailor was. (Even Peter would likely have had some measurements taken when he went into service before he ever had major injuries to use as a control as well.) Chest size and shoe size and height and shoulder width and other measurements would probably show some differences that not even weight loss and a serious injury could explain. If Peter’s telling the truth then the similar measurements wouldn’t prove his case but they’d lend it credence, and if he’s an imposter then the measurements could very well prove conclusively he’s lying.
I was speaking of a young Jeeves, at the beginning of an illustrious career, if he were visiting Downton Abbey in 1918.
Besides, no one really even questioned “Patrick.” He caved too fast to have been the real heir.
My guess re Mrs. Bates (this is really a guess as I have no idea what happens): Richard had her killed because either she tried to get more $$ out of him or he just decided to tie up loose ends. This will confirm to Mary how dangerous he is. But Bates will still be suspected and prolly accused.
Is Bates qualified to replace Carson at Downton?
Good question. Can’t wait to see it answered.
And a “Die in Hell” to anyone who spoils this…
[QUOTE=ThelmaLou]
Is Bates qualified to replace Carson at Downton?
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I wouldn’t think so; he’s a valet, not a butler. Before that he was in the army (where he was essentially an officer’s valet as well, whatever the term for that would be). Nobody’s currently qualified to be- Mrs. Hughes would come closest but of course it must be a man. They’d probably have to advertise for somebody.
Or, as mentioned, the mansion and estate Sir Richard wants to buy must surely have had a full staff. Their butler would probably leap at the opportunity since apparently it’s close to where he’s been working.
Bates was Lord Grantham’s batman–just as William was Matthew’s. Perhaps they avoided the term because even UK audiences might think “he’s no caped crusader!” In “normal” times, a footman might have been trained up to replace a butler when he retired, but advertising would probably be preferable. In To Say Nothing Of The Dog, time travelers visit a Victorian great house & discover that servant stealing was the favorite hobby of highborn ladies…
There are probably servants in the area ready to be re-employed at the house Ser Richard wanted–but Butler is an important office & he knew that Mary & Carson had a special relationship. I wonder that the old place was empty. When the family downsized (which is not a word they would have used), they probably took the choicest items but left much behind.
(Well, the* real* “old place” used in the show probably had all the stuff sold off long ago. In Parade’s End, the hero goes into used furniture after the War; his vengeful wife has destroyed his career & he wants freedom to live with the woman he loves. An unsentimental son of a Great House, he’d predicted that many households would be broken up & new money (often American) would be eager to buy the old stuff.)
A friend just said there are only TWO more episodes this season!!
TELL ME IT ISN’T SO!!
:eek:
Does anybody know if they’re going to air the Christmas episode? If so then that would make three.
I’ve read the short synopsis on Wiki and, without giving specific spoilers, it has some important happenings.
Valets could buttle, and since we’ve invoked Wodehouse’s “Jeeves”:
In a conversation with a policeman in “Jeeves and the Kid Clementina”, Jeeves refers to himself as both a “gentleman’s personal gentleman” and a “personal gentleman’s gentleman.” This means that Jeeves is a valet, not a butler—that is, he serves a man and not a household. However, Bertie Wooster has lent out Jeeves as a butler on several occasions, and notes: “If the call comes, he can buttle with the best of them.”
Excerpted from: Jeeves - Wikipedia
I think Bates’ training would allow him to replace Carson in theory, but his disability would prevent it in practical terms (e.g., serving at table, an essential duty which he cannot perform). I’m not clear about whether Carlisle is offering Carson the position of butler at Haxley Park or valet to himself, but I think if Carson does leave Lord & Lady G’s service, Mosely will make a play for the position. (Mosely valetted for Matthew Crawley and currently buttles at the lodge where Isobel and Matthew reside.)
FWIW, I went through a Wodehouse phase while in college and remember reading that although we now associate Jeeves and Wooster with the time period between the World Wars, Wodehouse was actually lampooning the British upper class as they were prior to The Great War. So, Jeeves’ opinions of Wooster’s sartorial excesses are based more in the mindset of that period than what was considered appropriate in the roaring twenties.
Note that Wooster was neither a peer of the realm nor an heir to an estate, but most likely came from a cadet branch of a noble or titled family. He was also a bachelor who preferred to spend his full time “in town”, as opposed to being a married man overseeing a (working) country estate and leading a family. Wooster’s taste in clothes reflects a desire to be a fashionable man-about-town. Thus, the constant offending of Jeeves’ sensibilities as to what he considered was proper menswear for his “gentleman”.