# Dowsing Rods, the Ideomotor effect...what's the straight dope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836 "2017-06-25T15:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/41 "2017-06-26T12:38:58Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Why do dowsers claim to have power finding water… so long as they are not being tested? To clarify, dowsers claim to have the power to find whatever it is they are looking for. They may think that it works for water, or they may think that it works for buried cables, or they may think that it works for [gold](https://www.google.com/search?q=dowsing+for+gold&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8), or [meteorites](https://www.google.com/search?q=dowsing+for+gold&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=dowsing+for+meteorites), or general “[treasure](https://www.google.com/search?q=dowsing+for+gold&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=dowsing+for+treasure).” Sadly, the one thing that they can’t dowse for is a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/42 "2017-06-26T12:49:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got to run for the bus, [but here is one such cite.](https://books.google.com/books?id=iFIOeLRyY4QC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=negative+energy+from+skeptics&source=bl&ots=nSrIIvKNz0&sig=ei1g6S6qDkX0g7zvrKH5iXMEN5k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJrPOrvdvUAhXHLmMKHVQmCQoQ6AEIZTAJ#v=onepage&q=negative%20energy%20from%20skeptics&f=false) That does not remotely match your claim. 1. The person is not making a claim of \*having \*paranormal powers. He or she is talking about preaching the word of God. 2. The person said that skeptics make preaching more difficult. He or she does not say that skeptics stop their powers. 3. The person was not challenged to take a test. 4. The person did not refuse to take a test. Come back with a proper cite next time. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/43 "2017-06-26T13:45:24Z")
Dowsing, not a magical means of finding water, but [a great way to stimulate rancorous debate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=170935). ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/44 "2017-06-26T13:58:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not finding any records of such a test as you have described-Where and when did it happen? Exploring Phychic Powers Live, hosted by Bill Bixby, back in 1989. [The dowsing section is here at about 1:04:00.](https://youtu.be/ldr2JTuHBy0?t=1h3m56s) Note that the test wasn’t done on stage, but outdoors, and the test was done prior to the show. The results were what were shown on stage live. The statement was made when the test was done there were no other sources of water at the test location which could interfere with the results. I would assume, but can’t prove, that the dowser agreed with the location. But if he didn’t that’s a glaring loophole in the show so I would assume that he did. 20 boxes were examined by the dowser, of which 5 held water (unknown to the dowser). The dowser identified 8. Not much point going on when you find empty boxes. I don’t recall where, but I do recall that Randi addressed the show in either an article or one of his books. The problem with the show was that it was done live, and you can’t spend a lot of time going over each contestant. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/45 "2017-06-26T14:04:54Z")
Is what I was handed as a kid to see if I had the ability. My step-father had it, and, when I tried it, there is no doubt in my mind that the stick tried to bend downward. I never had any call to use such a ‘power’ during my life, but I’ve seen utility people accurately find water and power lines, particularly iron water pipes and copper power lines. I, too, am skeptical that this a measurable skill. I do think that some instinct, at least partly based on experience, is at work. The thing is, I was holding that peach fork and I did feel it pull down strongly. You just don’t forget something like that, and you don’t question, after that, another person’s claim. Utility folks I’ve seen just use a piece of wire bent at a 90 degree angle, and walk forward with the wires sticking straight out in front of themselves. When the wires turn toward each other, there’s the line. And, yes, it is always the crew chief, or some older member of the crew who isn’t expected to do much of the digging, and they are not thought to have any supernatural power…they are just the ‘dowser guy’. No one thinks much about it, it is such an ordinary thing to do on any given day. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/46 "2017-06-26T14:08:59Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That does not remotely match your claim. > > 1. The person is not making a claim of \*having \*paranormal powers. He or she is talking about preaching the word of God. > > 2. The person said that skeptics make preaching more difficult. He or she does not say that skeptics stop their powers. > > 3. The person was not challenged to take a test. > > 4. The person did not refuse to take a test. > > Come back with a proper cite next time. What are all the qualifications that your demanded cite must contain \* because the stipulations you just added go a bit beyond what my original post said\*. edited to add: [Here is another cite about what I claimed.](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2008/08/negative-energy-research.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/47 "2017-06-26T14:14:25Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Cite one time this has happened. Are you claiming this doesn’t happen? I’ve seen it on a few televised tests. I’m not going to search a site because ultimately it would not convince you but I have seen it myself several times. But it’s one of many ridiculous excuses given by the deluded. My favorite was a televised test of a woman’s “power” that radiated from her hands. She knew this because when she put her hand up to her aquarium the fish were driven to the other end. Randi taped a paper bag to the side of the aquarium (so the fish couldn’t see her hand) and fish didn’t react. Her excuse, paper blocked her power. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/48 "2017-06-26T14:22:09Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > Exploring Phychic Powers Live, hosted by Bill Bixby, back in 1989. [The dowsing section is here at about 1:04:00.](https://youtu.be/ldr2JTuHBy0?t=1h3m56s) > > Note that the test wasn’t done on stage, but outdoors, and the test was done prior to the show. The results were what were shown on stage live. The statement was made when the test was done there were no other sources of water at the test location which could interfere with the results. I would assume, but can’t prove, that the dowser agreed with the location. But if he didn’t that’s a glaring loophole in the show so I would assume that he did. > > 20 boxes were examined by the dowser, of which 5 held water (unknown to the dowser). The dowser identified 8. Not much point going on when you find empty boxes. > > I don’t recall where, but I do recall that Randi addressed the show in either an article or one of his books. The problem with the show was that it was done live, and you can’t spend a lot of time going over each contestant. Here is the original claim made by **I.F.** : > [@igor frankensteen](#): > > Classic example I saw a long while back, on live TV, was a dowsing “test.” He set up an entirely artificial staged situation, with a bunch of small foot bridges over the top of sealed boxes. Some with tubs of water inside, some without. The self-proclaimed dowser had to walk across each bridge once, and then state which ones were over the top of water, and which were not. > > The first “hit” was found to have water in the box. The next “hit” was empty, at which point Randi declared victory, and went on to his next stage act. > > The trouble with his set up, was that he did NOT have the stage checked first, to determine if there were any OTHER things that a dowser could claim to find. In short, it was a lousy test. The dowser could have been deluded, yes, but it could also be true that there WAS water under the bridge, just not in the box. Since I cannot access videos while at work, could a third party please tell me how close _Bill Bixby’s_ demonstration matched the on **i.f.** described? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/49 "2017-06-26T14:29:51Z")
[Another article](https://wakeup-world.com/2014/11/03/the-belief-effect-in-psychokinesis-psychics-skeptics-and-science/) about the supposed negative/canceling out effect Skeptics supposedly have just by being present. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/50 "2017-06-26T14:33:00Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Is what I was handed as a kid to see if I had the ability. My step-father had it, and, when I tried it, there is no doubt **in my mind** that the stick tried to bend downward. I never had any call to use such a ‘power’ during my life, but I’ve seen utility people accurately find water and power lines, particularly iron water pipes and copper power lines. bolding mine. Evidence suggests that is where the “effect” resides, in the mind. It is a strong effect for you I’m sure but that is what the human mind is capable of. Fooling ourselves is second nature and can be hard to challenge withing oneself. > [@](#): > > I, too, am skeptical that this a measurable skill. If it isn’t measurable then it isn’t really a skill at all. > [@](#): > > I do think that some instinct, at least partly based on experience, is at work. And so the right thing to do would be to understand how such experience is built up and interpreted. To appeal to the supernatural gets us nowhere but it does have the neat benefit of making the “dowser” feel special. > [@](#): > > The thing is, I was holding that peach fork and I did feel it pull down strongly. You just don’t forget something like that, and you don’t question, after that, another person’s claim. You just described an abandoning of reason, rationality and science. The ideomotor effect is real and well evidenced. What you describe is exactly in line with what we’d expect and yet you seem determined to cling to the possibility of the supernatural. > [@](#): > > Utility folks I’ve seen just use a piece of wire bent at a 90 degree angle, and walk forward with the wires sticking straight out in front of themselves. When the wires turn toward each other, there’s the line. And, yes, it is always the crew chief, or some older member of the crew who isn’t expected to do much of the digging, and they are not thought to have any supernatural power…they are just the ‘dowser guy’. No one thinks much about it, it is such an ordinary thing to do on any given day. So mundane to you, yet are you not curious as to why they cannot replicate this under controlled conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/51 "2017-06-26T14:53:25Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > Exploring Phychic Powers Live, hosted by Bill Bixby, back in 1989. [The dowsing section is here at about 1:04:00.](https://youtu.be/ldr2JTuHBy0?t=1h3m56s) > > Note that the test wasn’t done on stage, but outdoors, and the test was done prior to the show. The results were what were shown on stage live. The statement was made when the test was done there were no other sources of water at the test location which could interfere with the results. I would assume, but can’t prove, that the dowser agreed with the location. But if he didn’t that’s a glaring loophole in the show so I would assume that he did. > > 20 boxes were examined by the dowser, of which 5 held water (unknown to the dowser). The dowser identified 8. Not much point going on when you find empty boxes. > > I don’t recall where, but I do recall that Randi addressed the show in either an article or one of his books. The problem with the show was that it was done live, and you can’t spend a lot of time going over each contestant. This seems close enough to what **igor** was describing that I suspect it was the same thing. The key points are that the area was said to have been setup to ensure no interference from other sources of water. There is no formal announcement that the dowser checked it and agreed with it but seeing as the rest of the test seems to follow the typical protocol and such a check would be insisted upon by such as Randi (to avoid the possibility of such a post-hoc excuse) then I’d very surprised if it didn’t occur. Also, it was not Randi doing the “judging” (and such tests are set up so there is no judging required) it was Bixby. Also, he chose 8 boxes and there were only 5 filled containers in the first place so that is a failure anyway. Criticisms? We aren’t given the full background regarding how the area was screened nor what claim the dowser was making. (was it “I’ll screen out all water containers”…in which case it was a fail) I’d have liked to have seen how many containers of water he found and have that compared to chance, plus replications of the test and a clear explanation of the protocol. Still, if that was a Randi protocol I’m sure we can write to the JREF and find out more. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/52 "2017-06-26T15:05:14Z")
Much of what I would have said has been observed above, but I’d like to point out a couple of things: 1.) The test of dowsing by trying to locate water flowing through a known pipe or hose 9whose position and location can be set in advance, or moved later, but is in any event a known parameter) was actually first suggested by a True Believer in dowsing – Kenneth Roberts, a journalist who wrote three books on dowsing, starting with _Henry Gross and his Dowsing Rod_ in 1951. He suggested the possibility of building a double platform, with a water hose on the lower platform that could be bent in various positions, while the dowser walked on the upper platform and located the hose. Roberts proposed it, but never tried the experiment, something for which Martin Gardner took him to task for in his classic book _[Fads and Fallacies] In the Name of Science_, saying that this is exactly the kind of proof that the book lacked. Roberts himself formed a company with Gross, whose abilities he fully believed in, called Water Unlimited. > **[Kenneth Roberts (author)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Roberts_(author))** > > Kenneth Lewis Roberts (December 8, 1885 – July 21, 1957) was an American writer of historical novels. He worked first as a journalist, becoming nationally known for his work with the Saturday Evening Post from 1919 to 1928, and then as a popular novelist. Born in Kennebunk, Maine, Roberts specialized in regionalist historical fiction, often writing about his native state and its terrain and also about other upper New England states and scenes. For example, the main characters in Arundel and Rabbl... 2.) Randi’s experiment, recounted in his 1980 book _Flim-Flam!_ (cited above), is almost exactly the same, except that the pipes containing the water were buried under earth, rather than on a platform. Reading Randi’s book, the experiment and its controls appear to be very straightforward and fair. The dowsers , if they performed as he describes in some detail, failed utterly. 3.) I know that Randi (and, I think, some others) have performed other tests of dowsing, some of them in the same manner, but I don’t have vthe details, and haven’t followed or read as closely about them. The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI) published this critique of a German test back in 1999: > **[Testing Dowsing: The Failure of the Munich Experiments | Skeptical Inquirer](https://skepticalinquirer.org/1999/01/testing-dowsing-the-failure-of-the-munich-experiments/)** > > The notion that certain skilled individuals can discover underground water by using a mysterious talent known as "dowsing" (or "witching" or "divining") is widely regarded among serious scientists as no more than a superstitious relic from medieval... 4.) Here’s an account of the protocols used by Randi and Dick Smith in Australia for testing dowsing, but nothing about the dowsers and tests themselves, only the statement that none succeeded: [http://www.skeptics.com.au/resources/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/](http://www.skeptics.com.au/resources/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/) 5.) There are videos on YouTube showing Randi testing dowsers. [James Randi and a Dowser - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOsCnX-TKIY) and [James Randi Tests a Dowser - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RtJ0yJL4tg) appear to be the same; I haven’t watched these yet. 6.) Account of a German skeptical society’s test of dowsing, somewhat similar to Randi’s: [Geotech - Technology for Treasure Hunting](http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=info/kassel/kassel1.dat) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/53 "2017-06-26T15:08:36Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > The thing is, I was holding that peach fork and I did feel it pull down strongly. You just don’t forget something like that, and you don’t question, after that, another person’s claim. Yes you do. You keep questioning. And then you find out that this is how a forked stick behaves if you twist the arms outwards. You get an unstable equilibrium that feels like the stick being pulled up or down, when in reality it’s just the result of you bending the “tines” of the fork outwards. I went out and got such a fork during a previous discussion when someone, like you, told a anecdote about how his uncle showed him this “power”. The uncle held his hands outside the kid’s and the fork bent down so violently the bark was stripped off and it hurt. I experienced the exact same thing just getting a forked stick and turning my hands around a vertical axis. There is absolutely no reason to believe dowsing, whether for water or “extremely dry tiles”, is anything except a combination of confirmation bias, subconscious clues and the ideomotor effect. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/54 "2017-06-26T15:16:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What are all the qualifications that your demanded cite must contain \* because the stipulations you just added go a bit beyond what my original post said\*. Your original post said: \*Speaking of things that supposedly stand in the way of testing, there is the claim of “negative energy” that some believers say skeptics put out that supposedly blocks psychic powers. When offers of neutral observers are made, they are often refused because they could be “secret skeptics”. \* It seems to me that your claim has the following elements: 1. Somebody claimed paranormal powers 2. A skeptic challenged them to take a test. 3. They refused to take the test. 4. When asked why, they replied that “negative energy” of skeptics “stand in the way of testing” 5. When offered a test by a neutral party, they refused again. All of those criteria are there in your claim. Your “cite” for this was a story of a preacher who found it hard to preach in the presence of skeptics. Elements of your claim proved : zero out of five. > [@](#): > > edited to add: [Here is another cite about what I claimed.](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2008/08/negative-energy-research.html) That’s closer, but no cigar. Somebody claims that they once heard a psychic use this excuse. The writer may have misheard, misunderstood, or simply lied. Basically, it’s hearsay evidence. To be reliable, a cite must come directly from a primary source. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/55 "2017-06-26T15:35:18Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Your original post said: > > \*Speaking of things that supposedly stand in the way of testing, there is the claim of “negative energy” that some believers say skeptics put out that supposedly blocks psychic powers. When offers of neutral observers are made, they are often refused because they could be “secret skeptics”. > \* > > It seems to me that your claim has the following elements: > > 1. Somebody claimed paranormal powers > > 2. A skeptic challenged them to take a test. > > 3. They refused to take the test. > > 4. When asked why, they replied that “negative energy” of skeptics “stand in the way of testing” > > 5. When offered a test by a neutral party, they refused again. > All of those criteria are there in your claim. > Your “cite” for this was a story of a preacher who found it hard to preach in the presence of skeptics. Elements of your claim proved : zero out of five. > > That’s closer, but no cigar. > > Somebody claims that they once heard a psychic use this excuse. The writer may have misheard, misunderstood, or simply lied. Basically, it’s hearsay evidence. > To be reliable, a cite must come directly from a primary source. That’s an interesting interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/56 "2017-06-26T15:47:38Z")
What part of it is invalid? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/57 "2017-06-26T15:52:43Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What part of it is invalid? The part where you reworded a simple statement with easy to find cites into a multi-pointed manifesto that demands something akin to a research study as a cite. I said what I said, and my cites reflect what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/58 "2017-06-26T15:54:32Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > 1.) The test of dowsing by trying to locate water flowing through a known pipe or hose 9whose position and location can be set in advance, or moved later, but is in any event a known parameter) was actually first suggested by a True Believer in dowsing – Kenneth Roberts, a journalist who wrote three books on dowsing, starting with _Henry Gross and his Dowsing Rod_ in 1951. He suggested the possibility of building a double platform, with a water hose on the lower platform that could be bent in various positions, while the dowser walked on the upper platform and located the hose. Roberts proposed it, but never tried the experiment, something for which Martin Gardner took him to task for in his classic book _[Fads and Fallacies] In the Name of Science_, saying that this is exactly the kind of proof that the book lacked. Roberts himself formed a company with Gross, whose abilities he fully believed in, called Water Unlimited… Now that you brought Roberts and Gross up, I feel obligated to chime in. First, the three books, _Henry Gross and his Dowsing Rod, Water Unlimited,_ and _The Seventh Sense_, were preceded by an article Roberts wrote about his experiences on his Maine farm, and can be found in _The Kenneth Roberts Reader._ Consider that Henry Gross, who made a living out of dowsing and seemed to be a highly successful one, _talked – in English – to his rod,_ and _his rod responded_ by dipping or not dipping as appropriate. A dip was considered a yes. “Is it 10 feet to water?” dip. “Is it 20 feet to water?” no dip. “Is it 15 feet to water?” dip. “Is it 16 feet to water?” no dip. So it was concluded that water was between 15 and 16 feet deep. Also consider that Gross was able to map dowse from thousands of miles away, even using a crude, hand-drawn map. Moving the rod over the map and asking questions elicited responses just as it did on location (although it was thought that on-location was more accurate). This kind of performance cannot be explained by magnetic fields, unknown-force fields, or ideomotor actions. It can be explained by wishful thinking or a number of biases. Can anyone seriously think that a random wooden stick has ears, sensors for water, a CPU to process everything, and convey thoughts to a person holding the stick through telepathy so the hands and/or rods move? One last thing. A very long time ago, I wanted to test my own “powers”, and I went to a pond that was fed by an artesian well. It seemed like a great place to see if I could get any reaction from a Y-shaped stick, since I knew there was\* flowing underground water\* somewhere close by. Then I found out that if I held the Y-stick in the “traditional” manner, palms up, all I had to do was squeeze the stick and it would spring up or down. A slight hand motion, due to leverage, caused a large stick motion. I could make it look like there was water detected anyplace I wanted to, and if I had wanted to fool someone, it wouldn’t be hard. Needless to say, I was never able to get the rod to act independently from my hand motions, and I never felt any “pull” from an unknown source. So I concluded that either I didn’t have the power, or the claims of power were bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/59 "2017-06-26T15:58:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The part where you reworded a simple statement with easy to find cites into a multi-pointed manifesto that demands something akin to a research study as a cite. I said what I said, and my cites reflect what I said. What you said is visible to everyone, and your cites come nowhere close. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/60 "2017-06-26T16:08:32Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What you said is visible to everyone, and your cites come nowhere close. Whatever. Anyway, I too am confused by abilities that supposedly are greatly accurate, and yet at the same time totally untestable as to their reliability. How does this work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=4)