# Dowsing Rods, the Ideomotor effect...what's the straight dope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836 "2017-06-25T15:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/61 "2017-06-26T16:55:51Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I could make it look like there was water detected anyplace I wanted to, and if I had wanted to fool someone, it wouldn’t be hard. Needless to say, I was never able to get the rod to act independently from my hand motions, and I never felt any “pull” from an unknown source. So I concluded that either I didn’t have the power, or the claims of power were bullshit. Just FYI, dowsers never, or very rarely, claim a "pull from an unknown source. " I’ve never seen a single one that said it. You’d have to go a long way to find one. The usual claim made by dowsers is : 1. Their subconscious mind detects the water 2. Their hands twitch slightly when they detect water 3. The dowsing rod magnifies the twitch to make it more visible I have literally never found a dowser who denies that he is moving the rod himself. cites: [http://tomgraves.eu/index.php?fid=dwk01using](http://tomgraves.eu/index.php?fid=dwk01using) Dowsing is a way of using your body’s own reflexes to help you interpret the world around you … What we learn to do in dowsing is take careful note of certain reflex responses – a small movement of the wrist muscles, for example – and work out what those responses mean according to the context in which those responses occurred. [http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos-sophia/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html](http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos-sophia/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html) 1.7. Why do the rods move? The movement of the dowsing rods is clearly initiated by muscular action. (that’s what a cite looks like, **Czarcasm**.) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/62 "2017-06-26T17:01:11Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Quite possibly certain things only work certain times for certain people and cannot be always replicated on demand, but it will still work occasionally. Science teaches us to have a set of circumstances and be able to consistently repeat them. What if stuff like this is on a tangent so far outside our realm of understanding? No, science is not limited to things that are consistently repeatable. In fact, almost everything scientists study behave in somewhat random fashion. Lab rats don’t all do the same thing under the same circumstances. People respond differently to drugs and medical procedures. Even elementary particles don’t behave predictably. That’s why scientists have developed **statistics**. Using this tool, scientists can determine whether a new drug is better than a placebo, even if it doesn’t cure 100% of the patients 100% of the time. Or if dowsing rods improve someone’s chance of finding a buried item. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/63 "2017-06-26T17:11:19Z")
[This site says](http://www.naturesprite.com/dowsing-instructions/) that “Divining depends on being able to sync your energy effectively with your target”, “Divining Rods can be used to trace the flow of “Chi” though any space. This can refer to your home, garden, office or any other spaces. A single rod is used to trace the path of chi. For good feng shui, the chi must flow evenly though the pace. The Divining rod shows you the chi path so you can make adjustments to the organization of your space to direct the chi flow”, “Divining Rods can be used to find missing items such as keys or your wallet. I believe this works because everything has an energy field and our common use of items trains our subconscious minds to identify with these fields. The divining rods can be used as a sort of antenna to help us find items”, and “Divining rods can also be used to provide information that is not revealed visually, such as the genders of unborn children and even physical maladies.”. [This site](https://thespiritseekers.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/divine-intervention-using-divining-rods-to-communicate-with-the-dead/) tell you that you can communicate with the dead using divining rods. [This site](https://www.naturesenergieshealth.com/metaphysics/divining/dowsing-rods/) claims they work because of Auric Fields". ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/64 "2017-06-26T17:19:29Z")
[this site](http://www2.connect.ab.ca/~tylosky/) has a very (unintentionally) amusing “scientific” explanation as to how and why they work. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/65 "2017-06-26T18:04:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [This site says](http://www.naturesprite.com/dowsing-instructions/) that “Divining depends on being able to sync your energy effectively with your target” In what way does this contradict my cite? [This site](https://thespiritseekers.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/divine-intervention-using-divining-rods-to-communicate-with-the-dead/) tell you that you can communicate with the dead using divining rods. [/quote] Not written by a dowser, and asks: "So just who is moving the rods? Many believe that the movement is caused by subconscious muscle movement of the person holding the rods, similar to the belief that the moving planchette of a Ouija board is nothing more than subconscious movement of the participants. " They suggest other possibilities too, but they directly state that the rods might be moved by the dowser. Again, no contradiction to my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/66 "2017-06-26T18:08:38Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > In what way does this contradict my cite? > [This site](https://thespiritseekers.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/divine-intervention-using-divining-rods-to-communicate-with-the-dead/) tell you that you can communicate with the dead using divining rods. > > Not written by a dowser, and asks: "So just who is moving the rods? Many believe that the movement is caused by subconscious muscle movement of the person holding the rods, similar to the belief that the moving planchette of a Ouija board is nothing more than subconscious movement of the participants. " > They suggest other possibilities too, but they directly state that the rods might be moved by the dowser. > > Again, no contradiction to my cite. I never said they contradicted your cite-In fact, I never referred to your cite at all in that post. I was merely showing some of the many explanations of what they supposedly do and how they supposedly do it. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/67 "2017-06-26T18:11:45Z")
[Dowsing for Beginners](https://books.google.no/books?id=V-gGyVmI0IoC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=dowsing+rod+magnetic+attraction&source=bl&ots=3eNCm4M2SB&sig=DrpgLRM3WqudrdRFAXNV7AuD__I&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ-fG3jdzUAhXEFZoKHRRYDFoQ6AEIOjAC#v=onepage&q=dowsing%20rod%20magnetic%20attraction&f=false) > [@](#): > > Many feel that it is an electromagnetic attraction between the dowsing rod and the item they are searching for. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/68 "2017-06-26T18:17:17Z")
> [@HeXen](#): > > Keep in mind that throughtou my 20 years there, he has been dead on at least 95% of the time using dowsing rods, though I still make fun of them and him for using them. > > So science says that Dowsing rods are the result of the ideomotor effect. What do you guys think? I mean I have nothing else to go on buy my own personal witnessing of him picking up all sorts of utilities, from phone lines and now even a dry tile…how could this be possible? He’s pretty good at spotting where utility lines usually and/or where they cannot be due to local laws. Would you be at all mystified or amazed if he had done the same thing _without_ the hocus-pocus and said that he was able to do this through years of training and observation? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/69 "2017-06-26T18:19:36Z")
> [@naita](#): > > [Dowsing for Beginners](https://books.google.no/books?id=V-gGyVmI0IoC&pg=PT99&lpg=PT99&dq=dowsing+rod+magnetic+attraction&source=bl&ots=3eNCm4M2SB&sig=DrpgLRM3WqudrdRFAXNV7AuD__I&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ-fG3jdzUAhXEFZoKHRRYDFoQ6AEIOjAC#v=onepage&q=dowsing%20rod%20magnetic%20attraction&f=false) I think my cite in post #64 says pretty much the same thing. It’s amazing what static electricity can do, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/70 "2017-06-26T18:26:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Just FYI, dowsers never, or very rarely, claim a "pull from an unknown source. " I’ve never seen a single one that said it. You’d have to go a long way to find one. Not as far as you might think. “There is no muscular action when the rod dips,” says every good dowser, “except as I resist the pull of the stick.” –_Henry Gross and his Dowsing Rod,_ by Kenneth Roberts, page 9 When certain sensitive individuals hold between their fingers a flexible Y-shaped branch, with no intention of bending it, twisting it or moving it, the branch will, under certain conditions, turn downward. It bends in the hands of the individual who is holding it-- and even seems to turn by itself-- with extreme force and independent of the will of the operator…the rod twists down with almost irresistible force… – ibid., page 12 …the movements of the stick are so violent that at times the stick breaks. The portions gripped by the dowser do not move; only the remainder of the stick has turned…–ibid, page 19 I don’t doubt these observations, but they are explained by simple physics and levers. > [@Peter Morris](#): > > I have literally never found a dowser who denies that he is moving the rod himself. **Peter Morris** , meet Henry Gross and Kenneth Roberts. His books are full of dowsers _saying_ they “feel a pull,” yet they didn’t move the rod, consciously or otherwise. > [@naita](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Many feel that it is an electromagnetic attraction between the dowsing rod and the item they are searching for. Which doesn’t explain long-distance and map dowsing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/71 "2017-06-26T22:25:43Z")
This article from the “Hawaii Remote Viewing Group” [HRVG - RV News - Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?](https://hrvg.org/newsletter/2001-01/challenge.htm) says: "The results so far have been, in Carrís words “disappointing.” The ranking of the targets by remote viewing versus random chance has been “borderline” at best. Carr is convinced remote viewing is real, but is not sure why his viewers havenít been able to do better in the Randi Challenge. “It may be because the pool is too large,” says Carr. It has been found that when remote viewers work targets from a “pool” of targets, they often tend to gravitate toward another target in the pool that interests them more. So youíll get a viewer providing good data about the wrong target. There is also what Carr calls “The Skeptic Effect.” He feels that Randiís staunch hard line skepticism may in fact effect the outcome of the test. " ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/72 "2017-06-27T05:55:50Z")
Yes, but that cite isn’t valid because Reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/73 "2017-06-27T06:54:29Z")
Here is an entry on [“the shyness effect”](http://skepdic.com/shynesseffect.html) regarding paranormal phenomena and their aversion to scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/74 "2017-06-27T07:27:43Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > There is also what Carr calls “The Skeptic Effect.” He feels that Randiís staunch hard line skepticism may in fact effect the outcome of the test. " Well, I find that very hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/75 "2017-06-27T12:26:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Somebody claims that they once heard a psychic use this excuse. The writer may have misheard, misunderstood, or simply lied. Basically, it’s hearsay evidence. > To be reliable, a cite must come directly from a primary source. If you doubted the veracity of the report given by \*\*Czarcasm’s \*\*cite, perhaps you should have clicked through the link it gives to its source, which contains this direct from the psychic in question: > [@](#): > > [Levy, the psychic who took the $1,000 challenge at the library, knows the feeling. > > “They called it a double-blind test,” she said by phone. “What I called it was a scam.” > > _ **The group’s negative and mocking attitudes hampered her abilities, she said** _."]([http://www.tampabay.com/news/science/tampa-bay-skeptics-true-believers-in-the-truth/760135](http://www.tampabay.com/news/science/tampa-bay-skeptics-true-believers-in-the-truth/760135)) [my emphasis] ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/76 "2017-06-27T13:12:15Z")
Princhester, read what I said. \*Somebody claims that they once heard a psychic use this excuse. The writer may have misheard, misunderstood, or simply lied. Basically, it’s hearsay evidence. \* Try and understand this basic point. There are some so called skeptics who are willing to lie to discredit their opponents. They make up all kinds of stories. So, a skeptic claims to have heard a psychic saying this thing. He or she could be lying. Such things are not unusual. This is not proof that the psychic said any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/77 "2017-06-27T13:30:44Z")
**Peter Morris** , read what I said. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/78 "2017-06-27T13:31:48Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Try and understand this basic point. There are some so called skeptics who are willing to lie to discredit their opponents. They make up all kinds of stories. So the reporter for a mainstream news source was making up stories when he quoted the psychic verbatim? If that’s the case, what could possibly serve as a cite? To personally present you with a paranormal-claimer? ---
**Author:** ![Khendrask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@Khendrask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khendrask)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/79 "2017-06-27T13:33:23Z")
> [@HeXen](#): > > The ideomotor effect refers to the influence of suggestion or expectation on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. This goes for things such as Ouji Boards and Dowsing rods (witch sticks). > > However, I work in utility construction for 20 years. I have a foreman near 60 and even as skeptical as I am, I have in fact witnessed his amazing accuracy at finding not just utilities but even dry clay drain tiles in farmer fields. > > Perfect example was 2 days ago. We had 1 mile to plow fiber duct and this mile was nothing but a farm field next to a county road. Several farmers notified us about a tile from the 1860’s that was buried somewhere within the first 1/8th mile. In fact, the land owner had the original hand drawn map that was drawn up in 1865. As a history buff, it was exciting to see. However the area had changed so much that it was useless, we just knew it was somewhere within an 1/8th of a mile from the corner intersection. > > So my foreman uses his witch sticks. I make fun of them all the time. He gets a detection on the same spot several times while walking back n forth across this large area. I’ll be go to hell if he wasn’t dead on the mark. We dug up a lousy 3 inch clay tile right on the very spot he picked up on…and it was dry, we hadn’t any rain for a month. > > Keep in mind that throughtou my 20 years there, he has been dead on at least 95% of the time using dowsing rods, though I still make fun of them and him for using them. > > So science says that Dowsing rods are the result of the ideomotor effect. What do you guys think? I mean I have nothing else to go on buy my own personal witnessing of him picking up all sorts of utilities, from phone lines and now even a dry tile…how could this be possible? Back to the original post then…So, are you claiming that there was One, Single 3 inch clay tile in that entire field? And your dowser went right to it? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/80 "2017-06-27T13:33:51Z")
So, essentially, we need the original negatives of a statement, on film, recorded by a notary public and witnessed by a circuit court judge, a Cardinal, and a state senator, and the authenticity of the film stock must be verified by the revived zombies of Isaac Newton and Eastman Kodak before you will even consider believing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=5)