# Dowsing Rods, the Ideomotor effect...what's the straight dope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836 "2017-06-25T15:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/121 "2017-06-27T23:04:33Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Can you explain, as I asked upthread, more about this tile. Why was there an old tile buried three feet deep that several farmers knew about? What was this thing? Why was it there? It just doesn’t make sense. You guys understand that it’s a [tile drain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tile_drainage) and not a single piece of tile, right? What he found was essentially a 3" diameter pipe made up of ~2 foot lengths of ceramic tubing. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Tile drainage got its name from tiles made from fired clay (ceramic), similar to terracotta pipes but not necessarily in a pipe shape. In the 19th century a C-channel tile atop a flat tile (mug and sole, respectively) were often used. Today, however, tile drainage can be any system operating on the same principle, often with plastic tubing called “tile line”. Precast concrete and ceramic are still used as well. I don’t know about the “no clues” though. Unless the discharge end is plugged (not just buried, but actually blocked), there are at least going to be signs of a drainage line in the surface vegetation. The presence of the drainage line and the spatially variable soil water content would have also affected the way the soil settled over time. With forty years of experience, you can understand a lot of information about what you’re looking at without consciously thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/122 "2017-06-28T01:01:34Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You guys understand that it’s a [tile drain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tile_drainage) and not a single piece of tile, right? What he found was essentially a 3" diameter pipe made up of ~2 foot lengths of ceramic tubing. Nope, had no idea. Now it begins to make sense. And of course explains why a guy with decades of experience, armed with a map, would be able to find it pretty easily using clues in the landscape as you say. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/123 "2017-06-28T02:08:48Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Look, if the question is: Can people who use dowsing rods find items at greater than chance probabilities? > > And the answer is clearly yes. HeXen’s grizzled old foreman is a clear example. People use dowsing rods of various sorts in various ways, and they are able to find all sorts of stuff. > > And the next question is: what explains this ability? > > The simple obvious answer is that successful dowsers usually have a lot of experience with the sorts of things they’re trying to find, and they use conscious and perhaps unconscious clues to make an educated guess about the location of what they’re trying to find, and the sticks or rods or pendulums are moved by the dowser even if the dowser is not consciously trying to move the device. > > If there is some other phenomenon going on then what exactly that phenomenon is, and how it works must be discovered. > > Is there some outside physical force that moves the stick or rod or pendulum? Or is it the dowser himself who moves the object, consciously or unconsciously? > > Well, when we do experiments where the dowser knows where the object is–we put the object under 1 of 10 buckets as the dowser watches and ask the dowser where the object is, the stick or rod works perfectly to find the object. But when the dowser doesn’t see suddenly the rod doesn’t move by itself and the effect is much weaker, and it’s very hard to distinguish between the results and chance. > > And so it is very reasonable to conclude that the dowser is the one that creates the motion of the stick, rod, or pendulum, or whatever. And this makes sense because there are so many physical methods of dowsing that all work differently but give the same result. Why would this mysterious force make one dowser feel a wooden stick pull downward, another see a pair of metal rods cross, another see a pendulum rotate counterclockwise instead of clockwise? And why is it that if we mount the stick or rod or pendulum on a platform suddenly this movement doesn’t happen, it only happens when a human being is able to touch the detector? > > So they hypothesis that the movement of the detection device comes from the human operator is very well supported, and any alternative explanation would have to account for all these facts. Of course this doesn’t mean that something interesting isn’t going on, it just means that the feat is taking place in the human mind, not some electrical or mechanical phenomenon that makes the stick move. > > And of course, the fact that dowsers often disagree about how dowsing works doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, it’s often the case that people are able to do a task but not being able to explain how or why they do it. It just means that we shouldn’t accept the theories of a particular dowser about their own abilities at face value, since they often disagree with each other. And of course there is the possibility that different methods of dowsing work in different ways. > > So now that we’ve established that the movement of the detection device comes from the human dowser, consciously or unconsciously, what next? How are they able to use their minds to detect these objects? > > And of course, it turns out that lots of people are able to use their minds to figure out where things are, even if they sometimes can’t explain or don’t understand why. > > So take HeXen’s grizzled foreman buddy. He can go out in a field, walk around for a bit, and tell his team to dig over here, and he’s very often correct. Is that a surprising result? As HeXen said, it’s always some grizzled old experienced guy who does this, not the sensitive youngster. > > So the decades of experience of the grizzled old foreman at locating stuff in his professional life turns out to achieve results much better than chance. And this is surprising? > > And if we took that same old dowser, and instead of letting him walk around the job site and look and listen and smell and touch the clues about where the hidden object might be located, if we took him to a featureless test area where none of those clues exist and ask him to find the hidden object, what happens? It turns out that in tests like this the ability of dowsers to find hidden objects at greater than chance probability drops tremendously, to the point where it doesn’t seem like the ability exists at all. > > So what are we left with? The astounding ability of people with a lot of experience in a particular task to accomplish that task without much in the way of obvious clues, and without being able to explain how their minds were able to make that educated guess. The fact that they use an apparatus that doesn’t work without the input of the human mind and body just means that’s the method they use to reveal the output, rather than just saying, “I think it’s over here”. > > We see this sort of thing happen with other sorts of “apparatus”, like drug sniffing dogs. Line up ten people, give them each a sealed package, and one contains cannabis and the others contain chamomile. Ask a drug agent with a dog to find the package. And it turns out that when the dog handler knows where the package is, the dog will alert to that package much more frequently. And so we realize that the dog isn’t just alerting based on smell, but also by getting cues from the handler. If the handler thinks he knows where something suspicious is, the dog will alert even if the dog doesn’t smell anything, because the dog isn’t in the business of finding drugs, the dog is in the business of pleasing the handler. Does that mean the dogs are useless? No, the dogs really do detect some packages by smell. But the dogs are also a tool for the subconscious mind of the handler. > > And so with dowsing, if anything else extraordinary is going on, before we can even start to explain it we’d have to show that something else is, in fact, going on. People can find things by using various clues, even if the clues aren’t obvious. As we remove all the clues, the ability vanishes. Therefore, the ability is the ability to interpret the clues. Any other theory of dowsing will have to explain this mountain of evidence better than the theory that people are smart and can figure stuff out from clues they aren’t even aware of sometimes. You are dead wrong about drug sniffing dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/124 "2017-06-28T02:51:12Z")
Is it junior modding if I say “Holy crap, learn to trim your quotes!”? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/125 "2017-06-28T13:28:01Z")
Although it’s an interesting topic, it’s noticeable that the only proof offered for dowsing always consists of anecdotes, whereas dowsers always fail scientific tests. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/126 "2017-06-28T14:18:13Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Although it’s an interesting topic, it’s noticeable that the only proof offered for dowsing always consists of anecdotes, whereas dowsers always fail scientific tests. James Randi [had a hand in exposing those “dowsing rid” bomb detectors.](http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/amazing-randi-bomb-detection/) [Here is a report James Randi made](http://archive.randi.org/site/jr/2007-02/022307sniffex.html#i1) about the Sniffex and it’s creator. The maker of the [Sniffex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniffex) detector sued him and lost. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/127 "2017-06-28T14:33:35Z")
Bout the claim that doubters can skew the results of testing: [When asked why the maker of a “miracle water”](http://archive.randi.org/site/jr/2007-02/022307sniffex.html#i10) doesn’t apply for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge, it’s creator responds > [@](#): > > Thanks for your consideration. > > We would consider, however, our water doesn’t need proving. As well, according to the limitations of quantum physics in accordance to standard science, the Observer is the Creator of their reality. And since Mr. Randi, is clearly not a believer in Aquamantra or its products, his observation will sku [sic] any test and therefore, the proof will be what he is looking for, and not what is the universal truth. The proof in peoples’ lives, is enough for them to know that we come from truth and love. For Aquamantra, the joy and happiness we receive in emails, phone calls and support is proof enough, that we have create [sic] a product for the common good of humanity. Peace and Blessings to you my friend. There’s that “universal truth” phrase again, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/128 "2017-06-28T15:18:17Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > You are dead wrong about drug sniffing dogs. No, **Lemur866** is spot on regarding drug sniffing dogs. [Wrong](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/01/07/132738250/report-drug-sniffing-dogs-are-wrong-more-often-than-right) more often than right. It’s Clever Hans all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/129 "2017-06-29T02:44:59Z")
[Here is a wonderful Australian documentary from 1980](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqoYrSd94kA) involving James Randi testing dowsers Down Under. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/130 "2017-06-29T03:46:17Z")
Even the doubters claim is dumb. You can get rid of the doubters if you set up the experiment in such a way as to measure the results without anyone actually being there. Sure, you’d need a camera or something to make sure no one faked the test, but you don’t need a skeptic to monitor the camera feed. I do think it would actually be nice to figure out exactly what a dowser is using to dowse for what they do. It would probably be different for different ones, though. And to compare it against how well they do without the rod. But I admit these wouldn’t have much scientific value, and thus am fine with the fact that they have not been done. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/131 "2017-06-29T05:36:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Even the doubters claim is dumb. You can get rid of the doubters if you set up the experiment in such a way as to measure the results without anyone actually being there. Sure, you’d need a camera or something to make sure no one faked the test, but you don’t need a skeptic to monitor the camera feed. This probably wouldn’t help. Look at **Czarcasm’s** quote above. The test subject could just claim that examination by any means, including recording equipment, changed the outcome. Given that we are outside the bounds of any known science anyway, the test subject can always allege some BS or another as to why the test wasn’t a true test of their abilities. In the end, you have to just decide - independently of the test subject’s protestations - whether what they say is plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/132 "2017-06-29T05:46:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > James Randi [had a hand in exposing those “dowsing rid” bomb detectors.](http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/amazing-randi-bomb-detection/) [Here is a report James Randi made](http://archive.randi.org/site/jr/2007-02/022307sniffex.html#i1) about the Sniffex and it’s creator. The maker of the [Sniffex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniffex) detector sued him and lost. To be fair, those devices do work. If you walk around with one, and you suddenly find yourself flying into a thousand pieces, there’s a bomb nearby. if you stay in one piece, there may not be a bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/133 "2017-06-29T06:16:02Z")
As the late great and very much missed Douglas Adams would have said, this must be some new definition of the word "work’ with which I am not familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/134 "2017-06-29T06:31:20Z")
It works very effectively the first time - and remember, in the modern world, lots of products are designed for disposal after a single use. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/135 "2017-06-29T06:41:57Z")
As the late great and very much missed Douglas Adams would have said, this must be some new definition of the word “works” with which I am not familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/136 "2017-06-29T07:05:06Z")
I don’t know what you mean. Look at the customer feedback - nobody ever stepped up to say they were disappointed by the performance of the device. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/137 "2017-06-29T07:51:11Z")
Well perhaps the customers are just late. You know, as in “the late customer”. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/138 "2017-06-29T15:26:04Z")
Getting back to the OP, I don’t believe anyone has proven that dowsing is legitimate. There are a lot of older guys doing things like water and septic that dowse, and it seems to work well enough for them. But it hasn’t been proven in controlled tests. A thread on dowsing was the first thread on the SDMB I participated in, and my dowsing experience wasn’t exactly warmly received. I tried it with 2 l-shaped metal rods, it was an interesting feeling when the rods crossed as I walked along, almost felt like magnetism. It could very well have been subconscious on my part, but still felt neat. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/139 "2017-06-29T17:39:49Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > A thread on dowsing was the first thread on the SDMB I participated in, and my dowsing experience wasn’t exactly warmly received. I tried it with 2 l-shaped metal rods, it was an interesting feeling when the rods crossed as I walked along, almost felt like magnetism. It could very well have been subconscious on my part, but still felt neat. Try standing still, and tilting your hands very, very slightly. Since you are holding a device that is magnifying any imbalance, you will find that you can cause the rods to cross, diverge, or point in any direction you want with slight hand movements, so slight that most spectators won’t notice, if your intention is to deceive. It’s even easy to fool yourself. You want water to be over there? I’ll be glad to prove to you that’s where it is, at least until you dig. I can make water appear anywhere you want by manipulating the rods. ---
**Author:** ![TheFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@TheFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFox)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/140 "2017-06-30T01:52:06Z")
IANAD, but I do work in horizontal directional drilling in a large city, it’s very important to locate and visually see underground lines in whatever area I’m working. My powers only seem to work with water lines, or lines with fluid moving through them, oftentimes duct for fiber or whatever are flooded and have water flowing through them and I can find them. When I started this job, I had no experience with underground utilities, but I had a dim recollection of people finding water lines with wires, so I tried it. It definitely doesn’t take a “grizzled old foreman” to be able to witch water lines, as I was able to the first time I tried, and most times since then. I’ve only been doing this about a year, but only one time comes to mind that I thought there was a water line and after hydrovacing the area wasn’t able to find one. Typically when we have a map or hearsay that there is a water line but can’t find it, myself and a few other guys will “witch” the area and find it. I always thought it had to do with static electricity from fluid flowing through a pipe pulling the witching sticks in their directions. 9/10 times I use line marking flags to witch with, essentially a piece of baling wire, with about 3 inches bent to 90 degrees. It’s also more difficult when it’s windy out. Try it sometime, take a coathanger or piece of wire or whatever, bend it into an L and hold the short end in your hand, long end pointed forward, walk from your front door to the street. I tend to hold the elbow with my forefinger, and rest my thumb at the base of the wire so it doesn’t fall, you want it to move as freely as it can. Don’t knock it til you try it. I realize this thread is about dowsing for anything you want to find, and I have no experience with that, just finding water lines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=8)