# Dowsing Rods, the Ideomotor effect...what's the straight dope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836 "2017-06-25T15:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/141 "2017-06-30T02:08:35Z")
So, dowsing for water works, except when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![TheFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@TheFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFox)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/142 "2017-06-30T02:59:10Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > So, dowsing for water works, except when it doesn’t. Well, water lines, no idea how to try for depth or quantity though, unless they’re decent(18"+) mains, when coming from opposite directions you’ll pick it up 2’ apart or so. And imho, 95% of the time it works 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/143 "2017-06-30T03:29:30Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > Try it sometime, take a coathanger or piece of wire or whatever, bend it into an L and hold the short end in your hand, long end pointed forward, walk from your front door to the street. I tend to hold the elbow with my forefinger, and rest my thumb at the base of the wire so it doesn’t fall, you want it to move as freely as it can. Don’t knock it til you try it. I tried it, so I can knock it. It doesn’t work. Do you have magical powers that I don’t have? **TheFox,** how come you haven’t won the [million dollar prize?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge) The challenge was offered for 50 years. Did you miss the application deadline? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/144 "2017-06-30T06:01:21Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > Try it sometime, take a coathanger or piece of wire or whatever, bend it into an L and hold the short end in your hand, long end pointed forward, walk from your front door to the street. I tend to hold the elbow with my forefinger, and rest my thumb at the base of the wire so it doesn’t fall, you want it to move as freely as it can. Don’t knock it til you try it. I’ve also tried it, so I’ll knock it as well. It’s the ideomotor effect and works no better than chance when there are no helpful clues or opportunity for confirmation bias. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/145 "2017-06-30T06:03:39Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > I always thought it had to do with static electricity from fluid flowing through a pipe pulling the witching sticks in their directions. Now if this wasn’t just a bad guess that would be a remarkable discovery and I’d encourage you to pursue it. In reality the effect doesn’t exist, it’s just the movement of your hands, and the guess doesn’t even make sense on the most basic of levels. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/146 "2017-06-30T07:45:07Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > Try it sometime, take a coathanger or piece of wire or whatever, bend it into an L and hold the short end in your hand, long end pointed forward, walk from your front door to the street. I tend to hold the elbow with my forefinger, and rest my thumb at the base of the wire so it doesn’t fall, you want it to move as freely as it can. Don’t knock it til you try it. There is a trip to Stockholm, a nice golden gong and international fame and fortune on offer for you if you can merely do what you claim to do under fairly mundane laboratory conditions. What you claim really is that groundbreaking (pun intended). I suspect that you are fooling yourself and that you have never tried, nor even given any thought, to how you might test your ability in a properly blinded fashion. Are you open to the possibility that you do not have this power and that your success are down to purely rational and well known phenomena? In other words, are you interested in knowing whether you truly have this ability? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/147 "2017-06-30T10:16:26Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > …witch…“witch”…witching sticks…witch… Of course you realize that we have to burn you now. ---
**Author:** ![TheFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@TheFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFox)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/148 "2017-06-30T14:52:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There is a trip to Stockholm, a nice golden gong and international fame and fortune on offer for you if you can merely do what you claim to do under fairly mundane laboratory conditions. What you claim really is that groundbreaking (pun intended). > > I suspect that you are fooling yourself and that you have never tried, nor even given any thought, to how you might test your ability in a properly blinded fashion. > > Are you open to the possibility that you do not have this power and that your success are down to purely rational and well known phenomena? > > In other words, are you interested in knowing whether you truly have this ability? Did a bit of a test last night, went out in front of the house and found the water main, then brought my girlfriend outside, who had no idea what was going on, and told her to walk with the wires pointed thataway and stop when they turned on each other. They did so in line with the water main. I never said I had some ability, all I’m saying is that metal wires find underground water movements, whether its static electric fields, magnetic pulls, or subconscious muscle twitching, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/149 "2017-06-30T15:07:08Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > Did a bit of a test last night, went out in front of the house and found the water main, then brought my girlfriend outside, who had no idea what was going on, and told her to walk with the wires pointed thataway and stop when they turned on each other. They did so in line with the water main. > > I never said I had some ability, all I’m saying is that metal wires find underground water movements, whether its static electric fields, magnetic pulls, or subconscious muscle twitching, I have no idea. Where were you when she did this? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/150 "2017-06-30T15:57:51Z")
What you’ve discovered is that the human mind is capable of many things. Can you find water lines via dowsing? Of course you can, lots of people can. What we’re asking is: what is the explanation for the ability of people to find things by dowsing? If it’s static electricity caused by water moving through pipes, how is it that lots of dowsers don’t use your method of rods, but use the forked stick method? Or the pendulum method? Static electricity is not the explanation for this phenomenon, and if it were it would be much easier to have an electrical meter that could detect the electrical field directly. Except there is no such field created by moving water in pipes that causes the rods to deflect. What happens is that your hands move very slightly, and that causes a very large movement in the rod. Now, why is it that your hands move very slightly? Is it some supernatural power? Let’s find out! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/151 "2017-06-30T18:10:14Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I drill wells… > > Last month a customer decided they wanted to hire a dowser. They had plenty of property so we didn’t have much for limitations of where we could drill. They found a lady that charges $250 to do her thing. She claims 90% accuracy, I assume the number is made up. She marked a spot and claimed 18 gallons per minute at 500ft. We drilled in that spot and stopped drilling at 960ft, the well yielded 5gpm. most the flow came in around 750ft. I am not a well driller or plumber, but I know the immediate area where I live pretty well, geology-wise. I can make a prediction that _any_ well drilled nearby will break through bedrock at about 300 ft down. I can also predict that a single 6" well will provide enough water for a typical household. Don’t know what that is in gpm. I base this on every well I know that has been drilled for the last 50 years (it’s in a state database). Never saw a dry hole yet. Do you think I would impress people more if I waved a forked stick, and claimed my prediction was based on magnetic quantum hokum? 90% accuracy? Pish-posh! I can do better than that _without_ a stick! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/152 "2017-06-30T18:51:18Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > I never said I had some ability, all I’m saying is that metal wires find underground water movements, whether its static electric fields, magnetic pulls, or subconscious muscle twitching, I have no idea. And others are saying they don’t. A single single-blind test with your girlfriend in a poorly chosen location is not evidence enough to overturn the many, many tests that show that metal wires do not find underground water movements. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/153 "2017-06-30T19:42:06Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > Did a bit of a test last night, went out in front of the house and found the water main, then brought my girlfriend outside, who had no idea what was going on, and told her to walk with the wires pointed thataway and stop when they turned on each other. They did so in line with the water main. That isn’t a meaningful test. Neither you nor her should know anything about the presence or location of water. > [@](#): > > I never said I had some ability, all I’m saying is that metal wires find underground water movements, whether its static electric fields, magnetic pulls, or subconscious muscle twitching, I have no idea. Well, the first two options have absolutely no evidence to back them up and the third is a well-known and understood phenomenon. Which do you think is most likely behind it? How could you design a test to explore it further? Of course if it is unconscious muscle movement (it most likely is) coupled with knowledge or knowledge leakage from someone with experience of water locations then your statement above > [@](#): > > all I’m saying is that metal wires find underground water movements, is making a massive, unwarranted assumption. What is actually happening is that water is found _whilst_ a person is holding metal wires. A very important distinction to make. You still have all your work ahead of you to show that the wires or the person are finding water by paranormal means. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/154 "2017-06-30T19:42:12Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > Did a bit of a test last night, went out in front of the house and found the water main, then brought my girlfriend outside, who had no idea what was going on, and told her to walk with the wires pointed thataway and stop when they turned on each other. They did so in line with the water main. > > I never said I had some ability, all I’m saying is that metal wires find underground water movements, whether its static electric fields, magnetic pulls, or subconscious muscle twitching, I have no idea. It’s great that you’re doing tests! That’s how we learn things and have cell phones instead of smallpox. The next step is to make sure they’re good tests. If you’re interested, a bunch of us here could help explain why that test doesn’t tell us a lot, and help you design some good tests – you (and we) might learn something! ---
**Author:** ![TheFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@TheFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFox)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/155 "2017-07-01T01:07:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where were you when she did this? I stayed on the porch. > [@Lemur866](#): > > What you’ve discovered is that the human mind is capable of many things. > > Can you find water lines via dowsing? Of course you can, lots of people can. > > What we’re asking is: what is the explanation for the ability of people to find things by dowsing? > > If it’s static electricity caused by water moving through pipes, how is it that lots of dowsers don’t use your method of rods, but use the forked stick method? Or the pendulum method? > > Static electricity is not the explanation for this phenomenon, and if it were it would be much easier to have an electrical meter that could detect the electrical field directly. Except there is no such field created by moving water in pipes that causes the rods to deflect. > > What happens is that your hands move very slightly, and that causes a very large movement in the rod. Now, why is it that your hands move very slightly? Is it some supernatural power? Let’s find out! I have no clue how or if people find objects, lost tokens, buried treasure, or nothing via dowsing. I only have experience and observations with wire sticks and water lines. It’s the only method I’ve seen first hand, which is why I said in my first comment that if you’ve never done or seen it, try it out and see what happens. I know that fluid through lines creates static electricity, the info I could find regarding this pertained to hydrocarbons though, not water. Metal water lines can gain a magnetic field through electrical current in the grounding systems nearby. > **[Plumbing Current Magnetic Fields - Water Pipes](https://www.emfservices.com/ground.htm)** > > Testing and remediation for high emf from electrical current on pipes and > grounding systems. Telephone consultation available. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/156 "2017-07-01T07:49:30Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > if you’ve never done or seen it, try it out and see what happens. We have. And we’ve seen quality tests showing it is all confirmation bias and environmental clues. > [@](#): > > I know that fluid through lines creates static electricity, the info I could find regarding this pertained to hydrocarbons though, not water. Metal water lines can gain a magnetic field through electrical current in the grounding systems nearby. > > [Plumbing Current Magnetic Fields - Water Pipes](http://www.emfservices.com/ground.htm) Irrelevant. Even if the rods did cross reliably over metal lines, there is no way these incredibly weak electric and magnetic fields were involved, for various reasons to do with basic physics. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/157 "2017-07-01T08:56:47Z")
> [@TheFox](#): > > I know that fluid through lines creates static electricity, the info I could find regarding this pertained to hydrocarbons though, not water. Metal water lines can gain a magnetic field through electrical current in the grounding systems nearby. Then how do you explain long-distance and map dowsing? Is this effect independent of distance, unlike every other force we know about? ---
**Author:** ![Dahu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahu/32/3416_2.png) [@Dahu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahu)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/158 "2017-11-21T23:59:54Z")
Sorry (not really!) to resurrect this, but article today on the BBC website that’s sort of relevant. > **[Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42070719)** > > Engineers from the majority of the UK's water firms still use divining rods to locate pipes, it emerges. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/159 "2017-11-22T16:01:41Z")
That article doesn’t surprise me, and there are probably thousands of places and people who “use” rods while locating water; I wouldn’t expect the practice to really ever go away. Much like horoscopes, most people have figured out they’re not true but there is a certain nostalgia attached and lots of people still glance at them, or read their fortunes from the cookies. Some people will simply like to use these kinds of props to confirm their intuitions about where the water line is. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836/160 "2017-11-22T16:09:28Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > That article doesn’t surprise me, and there are probably thousands of places and people who “use” rods while locating water; I wouldn’t expect the practice to really ever go away. Much like horoscopes, most people have figured out they’re not true but there is a certain nostalgia attached and lots of people still glance at them, or read their fortunes from the cookies. Some people will simply like to use these kinds of props to confirm their intuitions about where the water line is. I suspect it’s even an embedded belief that [science destroys magic.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceDestroysMagic) As long as you keep that evil Science away, the magic keeps working. Not that objective evidence-based examination of the phenomena uncovers that they’re unfounded. Not at all. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dowsing-rods-the-ideomotor-effect-whats-the-straight-dope/789836.md?page=9)