# Dr. John Dee and the Necronomicon **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 16, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380 "2013-10-16T06:27:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/41 "2013-10-17T12:00:28Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > It’s fiction, sure, but have you read the \*unabridged \*version?? Unabridged? Only in Morgenstern’s translation into Florinese. I did have a children’s edition with the E. H. Shepard illustrations. (“Oh bother,” said Pooh, as Great Cthulhu rose to devour him. “It’s a shogg-ogg-ogg-oth!” cried Piglet.) **thepillar** : I have no opinion on the “cipher manuscripts” except to note that Victorian mystery-lodge founders are capable of telling as amazing a story as any other group of people, and that the age of the paper does not mean that anythign was written on it when it was new. The fact that they were written in English in a substitution cypher makes me think of a schoolboy’s secret clubhouse more than revealed Wisdom of the Ages. But I am a cynic. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/42 "2013-10-17T13:20:48Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Unabridged? Only in Morgenstern’s translation into Florinese. Oh yes, the edition with notes by the Dread Editor Roberts. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/43 "2013-10-17T13:45:36Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Someone honestly thinks there is a REAL tomb to summon elder abomination? There is, and I did summon them. The call themselves “Congress” ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/44 "2013-10-17T13:45:55Z")
FYI: [Was H.P. Lovecraft’s “Necronomicon” for real? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1934/was-h-p-lovecrafts-necronomicon-for-real) On the “Mr Ed was a zebra” – yeah, many (many!) years later, after the snopes’ hoax was removed, there’s still one or two questions each year in Cecil’s mail about the validity of this claim. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/45 "2013-10-17T13:50:59Z")
Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Ceiling Cat R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn! kthxbai! –from the Lolcat translation ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/46 "2013-10-17T14:22:02Z")
Personally, I prefer the Paginarum Fulvarum. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/47 "2013-10-17T14:46:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I keep S. Petersen’s “Field Guide to Creatures of the Dreamlands” and “Field Guide to Cthulhu Monsters” instantly available on my reference bookshelf. You never know when you might need that information in a really big hurry. Oh, those are fun books! Very practical, too. Loads of no-nonsense information. Saved my life dozens of times! Well worth the investment, I tells ya… ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/48 "2013-10-17T15:49:48Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > **thepillar** –there are no historical, theological, or literary references to the Necronomicon, pre-Lovecraft. > Period. > > It’s **fiction**! > > Don’t believe me? > Go to a State run University Library, & look it up. > > It’s under Fiction or Literature. While, yes, it’s “ **fiction** ”, your argument is just plain silly. If every librarian in the universe decided to file _Lord of the Rings_ under “Math”, it would still be fiction, not a math text. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/49 "2013-10-17T15:59:33Z")
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a cat have? Four, because just calling the tail a leg does not make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/50 "2013-10-17T16:04:19Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a cat have? > > Four, because just calling the tail a leg does not make it so. On the other hand, if everyone else is calling a tail a leg I’d be trying to find out why. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/51 "2013-10-17T16:08:39Z")
If everyone is calling a tail a leg, perhaps we’d better check the Necronomicon for answers. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/52 "2013-10-17T16:16:20Z")
Lovecraft and his colleagues (Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, etc.) did a very good job of establishing a “fake mythology” of strange alien gods, cursed texts, lost civilizations, and such like. I think that the quasi-mystical and pseudo-scientific mishmash just “rang true” to a lot of the people who read the pulp adventures of Cthulhu and his ilk. During Lovecraft’s lifetime, there were readers who believed that Lovecraft was channeling his stories from mystical entities. That phenomenon continued after his death in 1937. Aleister Crowley’s disciple Kenneth Grant was firmly convinced that HPL was under the influence of otherworldly beings. > **[Kenneth Grant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Grant)** > > Kenneth Grant (23 May 1924 – 15 January 2011) was an English ceremonial magician and advocate of the Thelemic religion. A poet, novelist, and writer, he founded his own Thelemic organisation, the Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis—later renamed the Typhonian Order—with his wife Steffi Grant. > Born in Ilford, Essex, Grant developed an interest in occultism and Asian religion during his teenage years. After service with the British Army during the Second World War, he returned to Britain and became ... Peter Levenda, aka “Simon” of the 1977 Necronomicon, has recently published a fascinating book, “The Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant, and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic” : > **[Amazon.com: The Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant, and the Typhonian...](https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Lord-Lovecraft-Typhonian-Tradition/dp/0892542071)** > > Amazon.com: The Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant, and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic: 9780892542079: Levenda, Peter: Books Fascinating reading even for a skeptic! (I enjoy reading about fringe beliefs.) And on a more skeptical note, Jason Colavito, who has written debunkings of the “Ancient Astronauts” phenomenon, will soon come out with a fun book called “Cthulhu in World Mythology” : > **[Cthulhu in World Mythology\*OP: Colavito, Jason: 9780981679266: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Cthulhu-World-Mythology-Jason-Colavito/dp/0981679269)** > > Cthulhu in World Mythology\*OP \[Colavito, Jason\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Cthulhu in World Mythology\*OP I just love this kind of stuff! ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/53 "2013-10-17T17:09:14Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > If everyone is calling a tail a leg, perhaps we’d better check the Necronomicon for answers. Ah, that makes sense. It’s a simple mistranslation of “unspeakably loathsome squamous appendage.” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/54 "2013-10-17T18:25:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It is a bit unusual that someone would read that and think, “Did John Dee really have both the Latin _and_ Greek translations?” and not “Is this shit made up entirely?” If you’re going to get skeptical about something in that article, that’s an odd place to start. Nonsense. If you did not antecedently know that the Necronomicom is something made up in modern times there is nothing about that page to suggest that is a hoax, any more than all the other pages on that site that deal with “genuine” esoteric books. And if you do know a bit in general about the availability of manuscripts in the renaissance era, yeah, the claim that Dee would have had access to translations in both languages might surprise you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/55 "2013-10-17T21:37:40Z")
> [@thepillar](#): > > Now that you’ve mentioned it, what are your views with regard to the origin, history, authenticity and authorship of the [cipher manuscripts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cipher_Manuscripts)–[a fragment of which is exhibited here](http://www.controverscial.com/Samuel7.gif)–that led to the formation of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn around 1888 in England? Observe– > [@](#): > > William Wynn Westcott, a London Deputy Coroner, member of the S.R.I.A. and one of the founders of the Golden Dawn, claimed to have received the manuscripts through Rev. A. F. A. Woodford, who was a colleague of noted Masonic scholar Kenneth R. H. Mackenzie.[4] Note the word in red. In all cases, phrases like this provide useful information. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/56 "2013-10-17T21:38:48Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > Lovecraft and his colleagues (Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, etc.) did a very good job of establishing a “fake mythology” of strange alien gods, cursed texts, lost civilizations, and such like. I think that the quasi-mystical and pseudo-scientific mishmash just “rang true” to a lot of the people who read the pulp adventures of Cthulhu and his ilk. . . . It’s a little like the Sherlock Holmes “game.” Make believe it’s real, and keep a straight face about it. (Or, without the straight face, make believe P.D.Q. Bach was real…) And it continues to this day! Writers of fantasy and horror continue to drop in little allusions to Lovecraftian stuff. It’s a game anybody can play. (It’s only fun until someone has their soul dragged screaming out through their pores.) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/57 "2013-10-17T21:39:03Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > While, yes, it’s “ **fiction** ”, your argument is just plain silly. > > If every librarian in the universe decided to file _Lord of the Rings_ under “Math”, it would still be fiction, not a math text. I was offering a rule of thumb. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/58 "2013-10-17T22:34:02Z")
Aleister Crowley was a member of the Golden Dawn, was he not? ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380/59 "2013-10-17T23:04:43Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Aleister Crowley was a member of the Golden Dawn, was he not? Yes, he was a member. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dr-john-dee-and-the-necronomicon/671380.md?page=2)