Leave us face it – yamo’s just another postpubescent-hormonal teenager who thinks he’s discovered radical politics.
If they put your brain in hummingbird, it’d suck a mule’s ass for a morning glory . . .
CERTIFIABLY NOT INSANE!
My father was of the same exact opinion as “Rascist”, reminding the family every January 15th that MLK, Jr. was a commie and a perv and a sinner and a racist nigger and he had about as much claim to a holiday as Hitler.
Then when I got a bit older I did some research into the man and his teachings. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a very smart man with a very positive message. I grew to admire the man for his intellect and charismatic speaking (although, I also admire Hitler for these things) more than his message.
He was against violence, but he constantly brought up very painful, controversial issues in public forums with mobs of angry men around him. It’s freedom of speech, but what he did comes dangerously close to yelling, “FIRE” in a crowded theater. Perhaps there was a fire, though.
I also greatly admire his resolution to call off marches when they became violent - he wanted no part of violence. He was a peaceful man.
He was not a communist.
He was not a pervert, but he was a very sexually active man who often cheated on his wife without discretion. There were incidents involving nude romps down hotel hallways, threats to jump off buildings, white and black supporters being pressured to perform acts of sex on the good doctor and his entourage and many other signs of a man with an overactive libido and few morals.
He’s a great man, and a true hero to American blacks, but he was no saint. We should expect more from a Minister.
There’s also the matter of his name. His father choose the name of Martin Luther, the Protestant Firebrand, as a name to stir things up and rage against the status quo. He gave that name to his son Michael. His father was also a very smart man and, no doubt, knew of Martin Luther’s raging anti-Semitism. Martin Luther was very outspoken in his hatred for the Jewish race. Why would such a loaded name be chosen? Why would MLK Jr. keep this name?
In light of these facts, I still admire the man, but do not think the good outweighs the bad sufficiently to justify a nationally observed holiday.
Hell is Other People.
Er, Sake? Apart fromt he fact that I disagree with some of what you say, you asked
There was a murderer a few years ago in Salt Lake named Michael DeCorso. My middle name is Michael. Should I change it just because it’s the same name as a murderer? I don’t think I get yer point.
(oh, sorry, it’s the Pit, huh? Fuck off and die, you Hitler-loving punk.)
-andros-
At least my middle name’s not michael!!! Why don’t you go kill some more people, you seeping pile of anal discharge!
You’re not following me here andos. The comparison only be good if you changed your whole name to “Michael DeCorso” after hearing of the killer.
I mean, what would you think if some guy was running for governer of Nebraska with the name Dr. Adolph Hitler, Jr.?
Personally, I think there’d be a big to-do.
Hell is Other People.
Off topic, but who cares. . .
A famous athlete was born with the name of a famous abolitionist.
Later in life, he changed his name. His new name was the name of a (among other things) slave owner.
OK, I’m with you. And it’s a good point.
I guess the only answer I could make would be that most people have no clue about Luther’s personal views (I mean, he never started an anti-Jew pogrom) and he’s certainly known for (IMO) more important things–95 of 'em to be precise. The Hitler analogy is not debatable, but how about naming someone Thomas Jefferson? Would he be associated with the statesman and scholar or the philanderer and slaveowner? (By the Teeming Millions, both. By the rest of the unwashed world, almost certainly the former alone.)
-andros-
From yamo quote:
Are you answering the question? If so, then I’ll take that as you got a low grade.
That is an ill-informed statement, yamo. Members of the United Staes military do not abandon their rights upon enlisting or ommissioning, nor do they receive additional rights. That subject has been well debated on this board long before your arrival.
And what harm would that be? But you’re certainly happy to enjoy the rewards of the military’s action. Last I checked, the United States of America became a free country by means of a war. And it remained free by means of two other wars. Dr. Martin was fighting for complete freedom under the laws passed by Congress.
So you’re now setting yourself up as the sole arbiter of what legal actions are good and which are bad. I see you really weren’t much of a student in that civics class. The Geneva Convention isn’t just a cute phrase in a tv show. But you wouldn’t know that, would you?
No, I and others like me chose to defend my country. And thanks to Dr. King, and those like him, many of those who served beside me (and I beside them), are of many races, ethnic origins, religions, and national origins. That is part of Dr. King’s legacy. And I’m quite proud to number many of those folks as my friends. Even if you don’t like it, it’s still part of his legacy.
That might be because what you call a crime, the laws as established by the Congress do not call a crime. You certainly didn’t learn anything in that civics class!
If you had read all the way through my posting you would’ve seen that I do not hold to that idea. I point this out because you evidently failed reading also.
Mind reading is obviously not your forte. I said, and I meant, I do not hold to either that insanity nor to your stated one.
But, you might notice, there weren’t any crimes as you describe them.
And if I recall correctly, he was also wounded in action. You might not recall this from school but here’s a late-breaking news flash for you: The United States of America was attacked on December 7, 1941 by the Empire of Japan without said Empire following the established international law of actually declaring that war. Congress then declared war on Japan because what Japan did was an act of war. BTW, many Blacks served in WWII and fought a long fight to serve in combat units.
Telling lies does not assist your point. Even if you had one. FYI, the Armed Forces are used by the government to protect the country’s national interests. The folks we elect are supposed to decide what those interests are.
Now why would Congress pass a law to jail someone for fighting a war that Congress declared? For crying out loud, read the Constitution! One of the things Dr. Martin fought so long for was the actual observation of the Constitution’s 15th amendment throughout the South.
And in the end Malcom X became a more believing Muslim and not a racist. Your words here prove you no different than a racist. A bigot of one stripe is as bad as one of any other.
I could’ve sworn Dr. Martin did better.
Note: I did my best to tie this into the OP.
Sake I’m not quite following your logic here:
So what if he had a kinky sex life. How exactly is that relevant to having a holiday celebrating his civil rights accomplishments?
Very few of us are. However King is being considered as a Christian martyr by the Roman Catholic Church.
Maybe the firebrand label outweighed the anti-semit label. Anyway, I’m sure you realized thet MLK Jr. was pretty sucessful at making a name for himself. I doubt he’ll be confused with Martin Luther.
So what you’re basically saying is that his name and his sexual-practices outweigh his works in standing up against discrimination.
I don’t quite follow
Every jerk I’ve ever met was self-confident
Sterling:
Clearly you are of the lascivious minority which considers adultery “kinky”. More power to you, but you might run into some women who disagree strongly.
I’m SURE he won’t be. What’s your point?
Let’s look at the pros & cons of the man in my eyes:
-
Fought for civil rights and empowered blacks to let their voice be heard and demand social equality
-
Preached a doctrine of non-violence to achieve his goals
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Was a powerful speaker
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Was a Baptist minister preaching scripture and holiness, but cheated on his wife with prostitutes and minors
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Was named after a fervent anti-Semite and never renounced this name
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Was an active socialist; pro-union, anti-monopoly, anti-competition, pro-equality & distribution of wealth
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Considered blacks and whites equal, but considered women to be inferior.
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Incited many a crowd to a feverish pitch, only to be shocked and amazed when violence ensued, which it did on several occasions
Perhaps you follow now?
Hell is Other People.
From Sake:
This, far and away, has to be the dumbest thing posted on this board to date.
I dunno, Monty, there have been a few really dumb things said, even in the last couple of days.
The following are not “dumb” but need to be challenged:
simply means that he favored economic theories that are currently out of fashion, for which he should hardly be penalized
needs to be proven, not asserted, and any comments used to support it should be cast in the context of the times
and
is an old canard that needs to be specifically documented if it is not to be dismissed as simple calumny.
(If the charge is that people outside his audience reacted with rage to his remarks, then I still want to see the actual remarks that were allegedly so inflammatory. Telling a black crowd with white hecklers that blacks need to be treated equally may “incite” the hecklers to violence, but that is simply the danger of speaking righteously to the unrighteous, not “inciting” to violence.)
Tom~
About his womanizing, hey, Coretta put up with it.
Well, Tom, I do find it incredibly dumb of someone using the moniker “Samurai” to be griping about another person’s choice of name.
Perhaps ol’ Sake could relate to us the history of the Samurai government in Japan. You know, the brutal enslavement of the entire population.
Oh, I don’t know about that, Monty. You’ve said some pretty stupid things, just on this page: “And it[the USA] remained free by means of two other wars”, for example. What are those other two wars that directly preserved our freedom? The French-Indian War?? The Gulf War?? You know what’s also dumber then what I said? I’ll tell you then, “The Geneva Convention isn’t just a cute phrase in a tv show.” - come on now, that’s WAY more dumb.
You know nothing of samurai. Samurai is not a type of government which enslaved a nation. They are highly trained bushi who pledge to protect a lord or emperor. High-falootin’ guards.
Tom, you said MLK Jr., “favored economic theories that are currently out of fashion”. That’s not true - they were even more out of fashion then. His opponents openly labeled him a communist. His economic and social views were very anti-free market, which can be (and often were) construed as anti-American.
You said we must take his views on woman “in the context of the times”. Surely you’re not
saying that it was OK for men to treat woman as inferiors in the 60s.
As I have said, why he kept his name (it wasn’t actually even a legal name-change) is curious to me, more so because I have no reason to believe he was anti-Semitic (quite the opposite, in fact).
The occasional violence stirred up by King is no “old canard”. Perhaps you should look into the looting and rioting in Memphis on March 28, 1968.
I knew I’d come under some fire, but try not to let immaturity get the better of you and resort to calling my statements “dumb” because you don’t agree with them. At least use some stronger language, like “unadulterated balderdash” or something.
Hell is Other People.
No Sake, I still don’t quite follow.
Is this a list of character flaws that should call into question his motivations, or a list of reasons you just don’t like him?
Do we need stainless heroes? I don’t think so. King was a great man not because he was perfect but because he acheived greatness in spite of his imperfections.
I’m not quite following on the relevance of this on the matters of fighting for civil rights. Thomas Jefferson has many monuments. Should we raze them because he was a racist, owned slaves, and (oh horrors) may have had an affair with a slave?
Why does his name provoke you so, Sake? Martin Luther King Jr., an imperfect man chose to be named after Martin Luther, a revolutionary YET also an imperfect man. Maybe he relished the irony. Maybe he wanted to clean up Luther’s name.
It’s a name. No more, no less.
You just told Tom that socialism is unpopular at the time, too. Yet civil rights for all was also unpopular at the time. Why do you place that fact on your pros column?
And I’m sure it was King who encouraged his followers to loot and riot. But I thought he preached non-violent civil-disobedience.
SterlingNorth
The look on their faces when the world doesn’t come to an end. . .
PRICELESS
Let’s see:
I spent five and a half years straight living just outside Tokyo and working with the Japanese Self-Defense Forces. I think I know a bit about the historical samurai. Now the mythical samurai of which you speak…that’s not fact.
Regarding the two other wars that preserved our freedom: The War of 1812 is also called The Second War of Independence. And I count World War Two as the last of those wars because the Axis Powers were bent on dominion. Any surrender by the United States would have lessened that freedom you enjoy today.
Regarding the name: Martin Luther King Junior; unless his surname is actually Junior, then it appears he was named after his father. Looks like keeping that name was a way to follow the biblical injuction to honour his parent.
And speaking of dumb: what is your definition of “Militarian?” It doesn’t appear to be in the dictionary. The last one who appeared here making up words & definitions didn’t last too long when presented with the facts.
BTW, I do realize it was yamo who “coined” that phrase. It just seems to me you’re following that path. Maybe either of you could define it?
Sterling, you’re right about still not following me. I’m not going to repeat myself again. As you cite no evidence disproving my accusations of the good doctor, I stand by them.
The honor of a national holiday should only be given to the birth of the greatest, most influential men and women in the history of this nation.
You mentioned Jefferson, but even he doesn’t have his own holiday! He has to share a day with other presidents in a holiday that’s not even celebrated.
Monty, you presented some pretty stunning evidence that my understanding of historic samurai was wrong. “that’s not fact” is a great rebuttel.
I see your knowledge of American history is equally poor. The War of 1812 happened, not to preserve our freedom, but rather because Clay and the War Hawks were applying great political pressure to start a war for money, land and vindication against Britain.
Claiming that WWII was a threat to American freedom is pure speculation. Sure, Japan attacked Hawaii and Germany had a couple of boats sneak up to our shores and yell “Boo!”, but there was never a serious threat of invasion or economic ruin. We got involved in WWII to further our own interests abroad, counterbalance Russia, and improve our standing and strength in the international community. The freedom of the average American citizen was never in jeopardy.
I have never used the word “Militarian”, so I suppose you’re looking pretty much like an ass now.
Hell is Other People.
You mean such as Columbus Day. Mr Cristopher Columbus, destroyer of worlds, enslaver of civilazations, and he didn’t even make it to Asia. Why should we give his ass a holiday.
And what about that slave-owning Washington. Like hell we should honor him. He and band of ex-patriots inciting the public to overthrow entire governments.
It seems that you are grading King on some strange curve. Apparantly making sure a country follows through on its Jeffersonian promise of freedom and justice for all isn’t enough to overlook his unfortunate name, and marital problems.
Anyway, have you given proof that King considered women to be inferior.
Have you given proof that King incited crowds to the point of violence, with words other than all people should be treated equal.
I have never claimed King was perfect. But I don’t think perfection is a good qualifacation of who gets holidays and who don’t.
I believe all of you cons against King are nit-picks. He is a powerful civil rights leader for which we’ve given a holiday.
I just don’t think I can follow you on this one Sake.
Sake: The following statement is pretty assinine: “Claiming that WWII was a threat to American freedom is pure speculation. Sure, Japan attacked Hawaii and Germany had a couple of boats sneak up to our shores and yell “Boo!”, but there was never a serious threat of invasion or economic ruin. We got involved in WWII to further our own interests abroad, counterbalance Russia, and improve our standing and strength in the international community. The freedom of the average American citizen was never in jeopardy.”
If you’ve ever read “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,” a book based upon confiscated Nazi papers, then you know Nazi leaders had talked about invading the United States, possibly around 1943 IIRC. Furthermore, assume Japan and Germany had gotten their act together and taken out Russia and the UK. Do you seriousily think Tojo and Hitler would have said: “Oh, what the hell, we rule Asia, Africa and Europe, we can be content with that and ignore the biggest plum of all in North America.” Hell, no, the Axis forces would have come over here. It is elementary psychology – you don’t stop rolling the dice when you’re hot.
The major reason for a lack of invasion was Hitler’s inability to grasp grand strategy. Had he been the military genius his followers claim, the Germans would have delayed the Poland invasion a couple of years in order to build up a fleet. Had that happened, Britian would have gone down and we would have probably been fighting the Nazis on the Atlantic Seaboard.
Furthermore, some Japanese leaders, as witnessed by remarks they made during the war, fully intended to invade the U.S. at some point after the conquest of Asia. It is true the strike at Pearl Harbor was not intended as a harbinger of invasion – the Japanese military wanted to ensure the U.S. would not interfere with its conquest of southeastern Asia and Indonesia. However, the war would have gone a lot worse for the U.S. had the Japanese admirals had the sense to listen to their pilots and ordered a second strike at the Pearl Harbor oil depot, maintenance facilities and secondary airfields.
Read some histories on World War II, and I think you will come to the conclusion we were pretty lucky things worked out the way they did.
And returning to the original subject of this thread: I don’t think there should be a day to honor MLK – I don’t think there should be any holidays to honor mortals – not Washington, not Lincoln, not Columbus etc. No one has done that much for his country.
The Coyote gnaws …
but he does not swallow.