# Draft Dodgers? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2007, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208 "2007-02-22T11:19:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/41 "2007-02-22T18:17:58Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Wait you missed Powell on your list. Except he was the voice of reason in a war mongering admin. What does that say ? [/QUOTE] In a thread about draft dodgers, you bring up Colin Powell? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/42 "2007-02-22T18:32:44Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] When did he lie to his draft board about joining ROTC? He was accepted into ROTC (causing the draft board to reclassify him as 1-D, and then, before he was supposed to start ROTC, dropped out of it and asked the draft board to reclassify him 1-A. [/QUOTE] He did not join ROTC as promised, and ROTC was a last-ditch effort made to avoid pending induction. In order to get in, he had had to call in favors from Senator Fullbright’s office and Cliff Jackson, an acquaintance now working for the Republican Party in the state. When he asked for the reclassification in late 1969, the new Nixon administration was already contemplating changes to the draft that would have made it unlikely that Clinton would have gone. Indeed, soon afterward the lottery system started choosing numbers. Clinton drew a 311, and didn’t go. All in all, he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid induction, using political connections and skipping commitments to do so. These facts are pretty much not in dispute, and the only controversy surrounding them is the level to which they matter anymore. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/43 "2007-02-22T18:33:21Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Draft dodging is a serious charge. I don’t take it lightly. And I don’t level it against people who don’t really deserve it, by skirting the rules or fleeing their responsibilities or the country. In my opinion Bill Clinton qualifies because he lied to his draft board about joining ROTC. Precious few other politicians have done anything quite like that. They did other things like get deferments or join Guard units - not heroic, certainly, but legal and within the rules. I’ll not dignify your list by witchhunting Democrats who have done similar things. It would be an act of character assassination as bad as what you have done. [/QUOTE] I find your distinction of who is and who is not a draft dodher quite artificial. I know a fair amount about this since I was a trained anti-draft counselor. We tried to get people out of the draft by any means necessary, This included: [ul] Not registering, Student deferments, Religious/concientious objector deferments, Health issues, And, if all else failed, going underground or fleeing to Canada/Sweden [/ul]I have no doubt boil-on-his-fat-ass Limbaugh had strings pulled by his rich father. Clinton at least had the guts to openly oppose the war. W, in contrast, took time off from the National Guard to work on the campaign of a pro-war congressman. Clinton opposed the war and tried every means to get out of it. W supported the war and joined the National Guard to get out of it, then didn’t complete his commitment. I know who the scumbag is in that comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/44 "2007-02-22T18:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] All in all, he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid induction, using political connections and skipping commitments to do so. [/QUOTE] He had no commitment to the ROTC unit. He was free to change his mind up to the time he reported for duty. He availed himself of that right, and was reclassified 1-A. For someone who considers draft-dodging a serious charge, you play pretty fast and loose with your facts. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/45 "2007-02-22T18:39:20Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You have to be kidding. “Did not serve” ≠ “Draft dodger”. But you already knew that… And I’m sure it’s just an accident that there are no Democrats on your “did not serve” list. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Well, considering that he copied it from a glurgey partisan email forward, its lack of reliability is hardly a surprise. The “full” version comes with a list of Democrats who got medals. Ah, intellectual rigor. Mortis, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/46 "2007-02-22T18:42:26Z")
It doesn’t matter if he had a commitment to the ROTC unit. He had a commitment to his draft board. They were the ones who gave him a deferment in the first place specifically so that he could pursue ROTC training. For someone who would criticize Rick Santorum for simply not joining an all-volunteer force (from your list above), you seem to be giving Bill Clinton quite a pass here. Might I ask why? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/47 "2007-02-22T18:52:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] It doesn’t matter if he had a commitment to the ROTC unit. He had a commitment to his draft board. They were the ones who gave him a deferment in the first place specifically so that he could pursue ROTC training. For someone who would criticize Rick Santorum for simply not joining an all-volunteer force (from your list above), you seem to be giving Bill Clinton quite a pass here. Might I ask why? [/QUOTE] For the same reason you are damning Bill Clinton and not Dick Cheney. Both used legal means to avoid the draft. Yet I don’t hear you excoriating the vice president. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/48 "2007-02-22T18:59:13Z")
**Mr Moto** Perhaps Bill Clinton did not know the “right people” like John Ashcroft did. Maybe upon graduation Clinton could have had his civilian job designated as “vital”. However, if we adhere to the letter of the law (actually I think **Monty** is doing that more than you), then Clinton is a draft-dodger but good old John Ashcroft was in total compliance with the law. I think a quote from Anatole France would be appropriate here: _“The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”_ Now that I think of it, this subject has been beaten to death on the SDMB (and I think I participated in _every_ one of those threads). I wonder why **Monty** started this one right out of the blue. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/49 "2007-02-22T19:02:14Z")
What would you want me to say? Look at Jim Doyle, governor of Wisconsin. He seems to have received a deferment after college in the late 1960s. Why isn’t he on your list, and why aren’t you criticising him as well as Cheney for using legal deferments? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/50 "2007-02-22T19:05:24Z")
If you like, I will stipulate that Clinton _avoided_ the draft. Since draft dodging is indeed a loaded term, maybe this will defuse things somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/51 "2007-02-22T19:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] In a thread about draft dodgers, you bring up Colin Powell? 😕 [/QUOTE] Well he did get a student deferment :rolleyes: . Of course he joined ROTC and served in the Army for 35 years. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/52 "2007-02-22T19:12:08Z")
For the record, I am not criticizing Jim Doyle, who had a Peace Corps deferment. He also was obeying the law, playing within the rules, and performing useful service. I am skeptical of people who only seem to place military service above other forms of service on those occasions where their opponent is lacking in that particular credential. It is a bit of a shallow argument. I noticed Bill Frist was on the list that **Fear Itself** provided. He graduated college in 1974, and medical school in 1978. The world needs doctors as well as soldiers, so he doesn’t seem to belong on that list. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/53 "2007-02-22T19:23:24Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Look at Jim Doyle, governor of Wisconsin. He seems to have received a deferment after college in the late 1960s. Why isn’t he on your list, and why aren’t you criticising him as well as Cheney for using legal deferments? [/QUOTE] I never claimed my list was comprehensive. You compile yours, we’ll compile ours, then let’s compare them. Let’s see whose list is longer. > [@](#): > > If you like, I will stipulate that Clinton _avoided_ the draft. Since draft dodging is indeed a loaded term, maybe this will defuse things somewhat. Stipulation accepted. Like the income tax, draft avoidance is not a crime; draft evasion is. But pointing out draft avoiders in the Republican party holds substantially more meaning when held up against the hawkish history of the party, its devotion to military service and the shrill criticism levelled against Clinton for doing the same thing. Due largely to the incessant swiftboating by the right-wing lie machine, no one expects Democrats to be patriotic, or serve their country or defend their nation in times of war. Yes, Republicans must answer to a higher standard, since they placed themselves on that lofty pedestal to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/54 "2007-02-22T19:37:29Z")
Oh bull! Pointing out draft avoiders in the Democratic Party ought to hold just as much meaning, given that party’s hawkish history and devotion to military service. After all, it was Democrats who got us into both World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam. Plus, the last Democratic nominee put himself on a bit of a pedestal in this area, didn’t he? And didn’t numerous Democratic senators and representatives vote to approve military action in both Iraq and Afghanistan? So add some Democrats to your poorly researched list, already noted as wrong in many parts. At least then you can be wrong in a bipartisan fashion. Better yet, recant your list. It isn’t right or fair, and numerous people have told you so. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/55 "2007-02-22T19:43:48Z")
Why “Republicans”? How about anyone who places THEMSELVES on that pedastal? By the same measure that they judge others, they shall be judged against. So if Rush Limbaugh slams Bill Clinton as a draft dodger, then he deserves to be slammed back twice as hard. But the mere fact that a person is a member of the Republican party does not mean they must answer to a higher standard. If they whine about draft dodgers and how kids today won’t make sacrifices then fine, fire away. Otherwise, if they avoided service honorably, so what? I avoided service honorably, we’ve had a volunteer military since I was 10 years old or so. Does that mean I should shut my fucking pie hole during discussions of military topics? Does that mean I have no right to advocate for the use of military force, because I never volunteered for the military? Only veterans are qualified to hold opinions about war? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/56 "2007-02-22T20:30:14Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Draft dodging is a serious charge. I don’t take it lightly. And I don’t level it against people who don’t really deserve it, by skirting the rules or fleeing their responsibilities or the country. In my opinion Bill Clinton qualifies because he lied to his draft board about joining ROTC. Precious few other politicians have done anything quite like that. They did other things like get deferments or join Guard units - not heroic, certainly, but legal and within the rules. [/QUOTE] I don’t think “lied to his draft board” is correct. What seems to have happened is that Clinton used his connections to avoid the draft in much the same way Bush did, although Bush did actually join the National Guard, whereas Clinton did not sign up for the ROTC as he told Col. Holmes. From [Col. Eugene Holmes](http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/761.html) (the guy to whom Clinton wrote his famous [letter about the draft](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html)): > [@](#): > > Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army. > > The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton’s draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright’s office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright’s office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. > > I was not “saving” him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3, 1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification. And from the letter he sent to Col. Holems, it’s pretty clear that Clinton “avoided” the draft, even by his own admission: > [@](#): > > First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/57 "2007-02-22T21:51:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Okay, let’s go through this in order. At the top of the list, we have Bill Clinton, the highest ranking recent official who evaded the draft. I don’t think any honest reading of his record wouldn’t conclude that. Remember, his draft board deferred him only because he promised to join ROTC, which he never did. I’ll list some more later, from both parties, being much more fair than **Fear Itself** , who seems to believe that cowardice resides only on the Republican side. 😉 [/QUOTE] Clinton also opposed the war; therefore, avoiding it is neither cowardly nor unethical. In fact, it was his duty to do so, legally or otherwise. Going to war and killing people when you personally believe that to be wrong is one of the most vile things a person can do. That’s quite different than supporting the war and avoiding going there yourself. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/58 "2007-02-22T22:09:18Z")
**Mr Moto** It’s good to see that you have been courteously replying to all the charges that “Dopers” (including myself) have hurled at conservatives / Repubicans / war mongers, whatever. (Then again, I think the “charge hurlers” have also been respectful). I find this laudable in comparison to **Monty** , whose replies have been something less than polite. As I said, I think it’s funny he started this thread “out of the blue” so to speak. I won’t say anymore because he isn’t online right now but **Mr Moto** , Monty could sure as Hell learn a _lot_ from your message board etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/59 "2007-02-22T22:17:02Z")
[QUOTE=wolf\_meister] I find this laudable in comparison to **Monty** , whose replies have been something less than polite. As I said, I think it’s funny he started this thread “out of the blue” so to speak. I won’t say anymore because he isn’t online right now but **Mr Moto** , Monty could sure as Hell learn a _lot_ from your message board etiquette. [/QUOTE] Not out of the blue. Presumably in response to [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=409499) See post #10. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208/60 "2007-02-22T23:36:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] In a thread about draft dodgers, you bring up Colin Powell? 😕 [/QUOTE] Because he was the voice of reason in the conferences. Those with no experience were more hawkish and wanted to control the services. They dodged yet somehow became experts on running the army and over ruled someone who actually did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/draft-dodgers/393208.md?page=4)