# Drawing the Line Between Free Speech and Terrorism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439 "2018-03-12T17:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/61 "2018-03-15T11:34:58Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > This is not true. Speech is already restricted in several ways - that is, there are already a number of offensive and/or unpleasant things that you yourself are not permitted to say, because saying them would take rights away from others. Can you provide some examples of speech that “takes away the right of others”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/62 "2018-03-15T11:56:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Can you provide some examples of speech that “takes away the right of others”? Falsely shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater, death threats, bomb threats, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/63 "2018-03-15T12:09:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Can you provide some examples of speech that “takes away the right of others”? 😕 Are you really unfamiliar with the very common examples of “fighting words”, “incitement”, etc., which are notoriously exempt from First Amendment protection because they tend to “imminent lawless action”, i.e., unlawful violence? The essential problem with unlawful violence is its infliction of physical harm, i.e., violating the right of others to physical security. The reason that violence-inciting speech is not protected under the right to free speech is because it is in itself an attack on the rights of others. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/64 "2018-03-15T12:09:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Falsely shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater, death threats, bomb threats, etc. What rights are being taken away in those examples? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/65 "2018-03-15T12:17:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What rights are being taken away in those examples? Rights to physical security – see the post directly above yours for the legal terminology. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/66 "2018-03-15T12:55:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Rights to physical security – see the post directly above yours for the legal terminology. From where does this right to physical security derive? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/67 "2018-03-15T13:47:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > From where does this right to physical security derive? I’ll bow out of whatever journey you’re taking. If you have a point, feel free to make it, but if you’re just going to ask cryptic questions, then you can do so without me. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/68 "2018-03-15T14:19:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > From where does this right to physical security derive? Well, IANAL, so we’d need one of the Doper legal eagles to address this question authoritatively, but I have some cites of [other lawyers addressing it](http://lsr.nellco.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1381&context=nyu_lewp): > [@](#): > > In a wide variety of contexts, individuals face a risk of being physically harmed by the conduct of others in the community. The extent to which the government protects individuals from such harmful behavior largely depends on the combined effect of administrative regulation, criminal law, and tort law. […] What is adequate for this purpose depends on the underlying entitlement to physical security. […] For reasons of history and federalism, the entitlement in the United States can be derived from the common law of torts. […] > > The individual entitlement or right to physical security specifies the baseline for evaluating the efficacy of environmental, health, and safety regulations. Some jurists seem to situate the right to physical security ultimately within a constitutional right to bodily integrity/autonomy manifested in, [e.g.,](http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2082&context=bclr) “the constitutional guarantee of respect for personal immunities protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment”. That source also notes that > [@](#): > > In 1977, in Ingraham v. Wright, the United States Supreme Court held that individuals have a constitutionally protected liberty interest in being free from bodily restraint and punishment. To turn your dime-store version of Socratic elenchus around, let me ask, whence do **you** think that jurists derive the validity of legally prohibiting violent assault (and forms of speech that directly incite violent assault) if **not** from an underlying concept of the right to be physically secure? Do you think they just say _“ooh, hitting people’s not nice so laws against it are okay”_? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/69 "2018-03-15T19:14:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You may be mixing up what’s allowed to interviewees with what’s allowed to employers. There are most definitely [certain specific questions that it’s illegal for employers to ask interviewees in the US.](http://www.businessinsider.com/11-illegal-interview-questions-2013-7) You risk getting sued or fired for asking those questions. You are not going to get prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/70 "2018-03-15T21:33:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Can you provide some examples of speech that “takes away the right of others”? If I threaten you, my speech takes away part of your freedom to live peacefully. If I tell other people that you’re a pedophile when actually you’re not, my speech takes away part of the good reputation that is rightfully yours. If I am a military commander and I order my troops to go to your parents’ house and kill your mother, my speech… Do I need to go on? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/71 "2018-03-15T21:40:21Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > From where does this right to physical security derive? So “Give my your wallet or I’ll shoot you in the face” is protected free speech on your planet? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/72 "2018-03-15T21:50:33Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > You risk getting sued or fired for asking those questions. You are not going to get prosecuted. But the post by **Isamu** that you replied to didn’t claim that anyone **would** get prosecuted for asking such questions. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but you came across as though you were trying to correct or contradict **Isamu**. It is still meaningful to say “you can’t ask” certain questions of a potential employee in job interviews, even if what that means is that you can “only” get sued or fired for asking them instead of prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/73 "2018-03-15T23:48:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But the post by **Isamu** that you replied to didn’t claim that anyone **would** get prosecuted for asking such questions. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but you came across as though you were trying to correct or contradict **Isamu**. > > It is still meaningful to say “you can’t ask” certain questions of a potential employee in job interviews, even if what that means is that you can “only” get sued or fired for asking them instead of prosecuted. Not its a fundamentally different thing to the discussion in the OP. Saying you “can’t ask those questions in interviews US” is not true in the same way as the statements “you can’t make threats of violence in the US” or you “can’t wear a burqa in public in Austria” or “you can’t insult the royal family in Thailand” are true. Doing those things will not potentially allow another citizen to sue you, if you do any of those things the state will prosecute you. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/74 "2018-03-15T23:51:50Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > If I threaten you, my speech takes away part of your freedom to live peacefully. > > If I am a military commander and I order my troops to go to your parents’ house and kill your mother, my speech… > > Do I need to go on? None of those things are about taking away someone elses freedom. They are part of a crime. That is why they are illegal. Threats are a crime, war crimes are a crime, so is ordering them. Speech alone does not take away anyones freedom. Yes speech can be part of a crime (in a few very well defined areas). Once you stop people from speaking because their opinion is offensive and horrid you no longer have freedom speech. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/75 "2018-03-16T00:06:46Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > None of those things are about taking away someone elses freedom. They are part of a crime. That is why they are illegal. Threats are a crime, war crimes are a crime, so is ordering them. > > Speech alone does not take away anyones freedom. Yes speech can be part of a crime (in a few very well defined areas). > > Once you stop people from speaking because their opinion is offensive and horrid you no longer have freedom speech. Calling someone a pedophile is (narrowly defined) a crime? Not something to sue over, but something where the state will step in and prosecute? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/76 "2018-03-16T00:15:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But the post by **Isamu** that you replied to didn’t claim that anyone **would** get prosecuted for asking such questions. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but you came across as though you were trying to correct or contradict **Isamu**. > > It is still meaningful to say “you can’t ask” certain questions of a potential employee in job interviews, even if what that means is that you can “only” get sued or fired for asking them instead of prosecuted. You can get fired for saying all kinds of things, and we don’t consider that an infringement on free speech. You can’t get sued (at least not successfully) for asking someone about their membership in a protected class. You can get sued for discriminating against someone based on that membership, and the fact that you asked if they were a member before you made a hiring decision is suggestive evidence that it played a role. But the asking isn’t inherently the problem. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/77 "2018-03-16T00:23:01Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Calling someone a pedophile is (narrowly defined) a crime? Not something to sue over, but something where the state will step in and prosecute? I thought you meant civil libel which is a fundamentally different thing to criminal prosecution as discussed in my last post. If you mean obstruction of justice (by deliberately reporting crimes that did not happen), then again that is a crime can include speech, as with the other examples. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/78 "2018-03-16T01:24:57Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Not its a fundamentally different thing to the discussion in the OP. Saying you “can’t ask those questions in interviews US” is not true in the same way as the statements “you can’t make threats of violence in the US” or you “can’t wear a burqa in public in Austria” or “you can’t insult the royal family in Thailand” are true. > > Doing those things will not potentially allow another citizen to sue you, if you do any of those things the state will prosecute you. Criminal penalties (including jail time) attach to some of the anti-discrimination legislation that cover workplace interview questions in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/79 "2018-03-16T04:45:44Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Criminal penalties (including jail time) attach to some of the anti-discrimination legislation that cover workplace interview questions in the USA. In a way that effects freedom of speech? Have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439/80 "2018-03-16T06:37:34Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > In a way that effects freedom of speech? Well, no not in a way that directly effects freedom of speech. More of a case where you first said the discriminatory remarks and then impeded an official investigation, for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drawing-the-line-between-free-speech-and-terrorism/810439.md?page=5)