# Dream Act fails. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641 "2010-12-18T19:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/1 "2010-12-18T19:03:19Z")
[Five short.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/18/AR2010121801730.html) A real shame. But to keep this a GD thread, albeit a Pit would not be inappropriate for how I feel, what will be the ramifications of this vote? I posit that this will end up neutral and not really in the end bite anyone too bad and mores the pity. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/2 "2010-12-18T20:58:57Z")
Just goes to show you that most people who complain about illegal immigrants don’t really want anybody to be here legally either. Somebody was talking in another thread about “immigrants” who took crappy factory jobs somewhere in the 90s. Well now the “Americans” are resentful because they can’t get any jobs and wish they had those crappy factory jobs back. The whole idea baffles me. To my mind, if you’ve been living and working in the US for over a decade, you’re a fucking American! Do the same people resent the policemen and grocery clerks and road construction crews they see everyday for working when they aren’t? Or do you have to look vaguely eastern and/or Hispanic to earn the stink eye? Of course, nothing approaching (what I view as) a rational immigration policy will ever even be considered in this political climate. While it is still against the law to come into this country, being somewhat reasonable to a few who already made it here is just small potatoes. Yeah, it would have been a nice bone to throw all those hard-working Americans by taking the “criminal” tag off their foreheads, but it would be a lot better if we just repealed the law against Mexicans moving here in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/3 "2010-12-19T00:41:23Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Just goes to show you that most people who complain about illegal immigrants don’t really want anybody to be here legally either. 1. People complain about high murder rates 2. The government suggests legalizing some forms of murder 3. The people shout the suggestion down 4. How hypocritical of the people! They didn’t really want murder rates lowered now, did they? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/4 "2010-12-19T01:06:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. People complain about high murder rates > 2. The government suggests legalizing some forms of murder > 3. The people shout the suggestion down > 4. How hypocritical of the people! They didn’t really want murder rates lowered now, did they? So your position is being the child of Mexicans is like being a murderer? When come back bring crime of equal equivalency with less bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/5 "2010-12-19T01:13:56Z")
This is a great thread! Already, only a few posts in I’ve learned that being in the country illegally, even if you were brought here as a child, is pretty much the same as killing people. Or maybe I misunderstood, and **Sage Rat** only means to say that it’s impossible to disingenuously oppose decriminalization of any illegality ever. That’s probably it. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/6 "2010-12-19T01:21:44Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > This is a great thread! Already, only a few posts in I’ve learned that being in the country illegally, even if you were brought here as a child, is pretty much the same as killing people. > > Or maybe I misunderstood, and **Sage Rat** only means to say that it’s impossible to disingenuously oppose decriminalization of any illegality ever. That’s probably it. no, it’s just that claiming “we don’t want people here legally” when discussing a failed bill giving illegals a legal status is a wee bit disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/7 "2010-12-19T01:30:02Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, it’s just that claiming “we don’t want people here legally” when discussing a bill giving illegals a legal status is a wee bit disingenuous. The people this would have empowered toward citizenship were people who’s sole means of support came to the US. Children go with their parents. They don’t have much choice. Basically to convert the slanderous, metaphor added earlier to something more fitting it’s like a law that says it isn’t murder if it’s self defense. If your illegal entry in the country is the fault of someone else, then the society you’ve come to be apart of will give you a way to make it right. That’s the America I want to live, that I want my kids to grow up knowing. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/8 "2010-12-19T01:31:48Z")
Calling it “a bill giving illegals a legal status” is a bit misleading in itself, I’d say. The act would be limited to kids who completed primary education in this country while here illegally, and would put further requirements on them to qualify for citizenship. If we’re gonna snipe each other over our relative sincerity, let’s speak accurately about the subject matter. ETA: Or, what **The Tao’s Revenge** said. _Again_. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/9 "2010-12-19T01:32:35Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If your illegal entry in the country is the fault of someone else, then the society you’ve come to be apart of will give you a way to make it right. Apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/10 "2010-12-19T01:33:40Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Calling it “a bill giving illegals a legal status” is a bit misleading in itself, I’d say. The act would be limited to kids who completed primary education in this country while here illegally, and would put further requirements on them to qualify for citizenship. If we’re gonna snipe each other over our relative sincerity, let’s speak accurately about the subject matter. > > ETA: Or, what **The Tao’s Revenge** said. _Again_. The bill absolutely legalizes their status. Only someone desperate to make a point would claim otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/11 "2010-12-19T01:35:50Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > The bill absolutely legalizes their status. Only someone desperate to make a point would claim otherwise. It does not “absolutely” do that. Only someone who doesn’t understand the bill would claim it does. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/12 "2010-12-19T01:39:28Z")
[Senate bill S.3992](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:S3992:) ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/13 "2010-12-19T01:39:41Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > It does not “absolutely” do that. Only someone who doesn’t understand the bill would claim it does. cite? note that “legalize” is not the same as “give legal status to” “Authorizes the Secretary of Homeland Security (DHS) to cancel the removal of, **and adjust to conditional nonimmigrant status** , an alien who” ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/14 "2010-12-19T01:41:22Z")
So, in your language, conditional is the same as absolute? By the way, post #12 gives the citation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/15 "2010-12-19T01:41:59Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Apparently not. Someday. The present always makes me look pessimistic, but then look at history. You ever read some of savage stuff that a part of American history? Slave trades, ethnic cleansing, we even had concentration camps in living memory. Yet we out grew that, and look back at those times with shame. There’s a right side and a wrong side to history. Sometimes the wrong side wins, but it’s never permanent. Ultimately Mexicans are the new [Irish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American#Discrimination). It’s sad we haven’t learned to overcome our xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/16 "2010-12-19T01:42:59Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So, in your language, conditional is the same as absolute? in terms of possessing a legalized status, yes. do you think that conditional permanent residents, whose status is received by marriage to a US citizen for under 2 years, is not a “legalized” status? you’re in the system. you are definitionally not an illegal at that point. whether that’s an absolute, irrevocable position is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/17 "2010-12-19T01:43:53Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > The bill absolutely legalizes their status. Only someone desperate to make a point would claim otherwise. Legalizes who’s status? The status of children caught in a bad situation, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/18 "2010-12-19T01:43:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Someday. The present always makes me look pessimistic, but then look at history. You ever read some of savage stuff that a part of American history? Slave trades, ethnic cleansing, we even had concentration camps in living memory. > > Yet we out grew that, and look back at those times with shame. There’s a right side and a wrong side to history. Sometimes the wrong side wins, but it’s never permanent. > > Ultimately Mexicans are the new [Irish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American#Discrimination). It’s sad we haven’t learned to overcome our xenophobia. I’m not sure why you think that favoring one group of illegals over another is a particularly just, and “right” outcome to this. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/19 "2010-12-19T01:45:00Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Legalizes who’s status? The status of children caught in a bad situation, correct? i wouldn’t characterize it with such skewed language as yours, but yes: it legalizes the status of individuals under a certain age who meet certain criteria. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/20 "2010-12-19T01:46:43Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I’m not sure why you think that favoring one group of illegals over another is a particularly just, and “right” outcome to this. Okay. Tell me what these children did wrong. Should have they stayed in Mexico and been parentless beggars? How about babies who had no knowledge of what’s going on? Your a Mexican 4 year old, your madre and padre are going to the US. What do you do? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641.md?page=2)