# Dream Act fails. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641 "2010-12-18T19:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/21 "2010-12-19T01:48:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Okay. Tell me what these children did wrong. Should have they stayed in Mexico and been parentless beggars? How about babies who had no knowledge of what’s going on? > > Your a Mexican 4 year old, your madre and padre are going to the US. What do you do? what these kids did or did not do wrong is irrelevant to the issue. that issue being “that most people who complain about illegal immigrants don’t really want anybody to be here legally either.” but did their parents do anything more or less wrong? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/22 "2010-12-19T01:49:58Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > you’re in the system. you are definitionally not an illegal at that point. whether that’s an absolute, irrevocable position is irrelevant. So your point then is that it’s not prejudicial at all to call the DREAM Act “a bill giving illegals a legal status” because it gives a limited class of children of illegal immigrants a provisional legal status with very specific conditions for earning permanent legal residence? I disagree. That characterization as used by DREAM opponents is a sneaky and highly inaccurate attempt to influence perceptions regarding the legislation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/23 "2010-12-19T01:52:38Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > i wouldn’t characterize it with such skewed language as yours, but yes: it legalizes the status of individuals under a certain age who meet certain criteria. Just say it. You want to punish children for the crimes of their parents. Say it. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/24 "2010-12-19T01:52:49Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So your point then is that it’s not prejudicial at all to call the DREAM Act “a bill giving illegals a legal status” because it gives a limited class of children of illegal immigrants a provisional legal status with very specific conditions for earning permanent legal residence? no it is an accurate summary of what the DREAM act attempts to implement. only those with an agenda to push need the post-quotation editorializing. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/25 "2010-12-19T01:54:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Just say it. You want to punish children for the crimes of their parents. Say it. no, in fact. I do not want to give any class of illegal immigrant any special benefit vis-a-vis any other class. Why are you seeking to inure additional benefit to this particular class to the detriment of all other illegals (who presumably came here to make a better life for themselves, as well) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/26 "2010-12-19T01:56:34Z")
Does “post-quotation editorializing” mean “accurate summary of the bill’s provisions”? If so, then I admit, I have an agenda. Secretly, I’m arguing because I enjoy refuting bullshit misrepresentations. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/27 "2010-12-19T01:57:32Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Does “post-quotation editorializing” mean “accurate summary of the bill’s provisions”? If so, then I admit, I have an agenda. Secretly, I’m arguing because I enjoy refuting bullshit misrepresentations. what exactly is a “bullshit misinterpretation” of the DREAM act being “a bill giving illegals a legal status” ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/28 "2010-12-19T02:01:09Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, in fact. I do not want to give any class of illegal immigrant any special benefit vis-a-vis any other class. > > Why are you seeking to inure additional benefit to this particular class to the detriment of all other illegals (who presumably came here to make a better life for themselves, as well) Can you make a coherent argument? You seem to be opposing the bill because giving a path to citizenship for one class of illegals of whom you don’t approve would be unfair to the other classes of illegals of whom you don’t approve. Gosh, that’s not a disingenuous argument at all. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/29 "2010-12-19T02:02:27Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Can you make a coherent argument? You seem to be opposing the bill because giving a path to citizenship for one class of illegals of whom you don’t approve would be unfair to the other classes of illegals of whom you don’t approve. > > Gosh, that’s not a disingenuous argument at all. no, it’s actually not disingenous. it’s absolutely fair. can you explain why you support a bill that discriminates against one class of illegal immigrants versus another? edit: what about those children-of-illegals who are incapable (either because of intelligence or resources) to attend tertiary education? they’re a-ok in your book so long as they risk their life for Uncle Sam? But if they’re not willing to do that, fuck them? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/30 "2010-12-19T02:05:03Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > what exactly is a “bullshit misinterpretation” of the DREAM act being “a bill giving illegals a legal status” That would be the fact that such a characterization is unqualified, in what seems to be a manner calculated to portray the bill as some sort of amnesty. A reading of the text of the bill shows that it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/31 "2010-12-19T02:06:32Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > That would be the fact that such a characterization is unqualified, in what seems to be a manner calculated to portray the bill as some sort of amnesty. A reading of the text of the bill shows that it is not. it doesn’t need to be unqualified. it is a prima facie accurate statement. additionally, it is a fucking “sort of amnesty” - not like the accuracy of the statement changes that anyways. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/32 "2010-12-19T02:07:03Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, it’s actually not disingenous. it’s absolutely fair. > > can you explain why you support a bill that discriminates against one class of illegal immigrants versus another? > edit: what about those children-of-illegals who are incapable (either because of intelligence or resources) to attend tertiary education? they’re a-ok in your book so long as they risk their life for Uncle Sam? But if they’re not willing to do that, fuck them? Crocodile tears. Sorry, I’m not going to continue to feed you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/33 "2010-12-19T02:08:16Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, in fact. I do not want to give any class of illegal immigrant any special benefit vis-a-vis any other class. > > Why are you seeking to inure additional benefit to this particular class to the detriment of all other illegals (who presumably came here to make a better life for themselves, as well) Because unlike other immigrants they’re already part of American society, through no fault of their own. What do you call someone who speaks American English as a native speaker would with an American accent, who went to school everyday saying the pledge of alliance, who knows American food, American traditions, has American friends, who plays sports with Americans, who’s idea of home is an American state? Because around here I know people who are American in every way someone can be American, except where they happened to be born, which is the only thing that counts. That says to me there’s something wrong. To take people from the homes they grew up in and throw them into what’s essentially to them a foreign society because of the location on their birth certificate is beyond cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/34 "2010-12-19T02:09:16Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Crocodile tears. > > Sorry, I’m not going to continue to feed you. he who claims disingenuous behavior on my has what evidence of such behavior? it is a politically expedient bill that is grossly, repeat grossly, discriminatory towards one group of illegals over another. i wouldn’t be upset if it passed, but i’m not exactly upset that it passed, either. and whatever my feelings on it, the bill’s failure cannot lead anyone to conclude that "…most people who complain about illegal immigrants don’t really want anybody to be here legally either. " ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/35 "2010-12-19T02:14:26Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Because unlike other immigrants they’re already part of American society, through no fault of their own. > What do you call someone who speaks American English as a native speaker would with an American accent, who went to school everyday saying the pledge of alliance, who knows American food, American traditions, has American friends, who plays sports with Americans, who’s idea of home is an American state? > > Because around here I know people who are American in every way someone can be American, except where they happened to be born, which is the only thing that counts. That says to me there’s something wrong. > To take people from the homes they grew up in and throw them into what’s essentially to them a foreign society because of the location on their birth certificate is beyond cruel. Wow. So that’s the qualification to be “american” huh? I guess you better check with any of the jus sanguinis states and berate them for not enabling their “immigrant children” from being considered members of their society, given the low bar you’ve set. the “no fault of their own” line is some tearjerky bullshit, but ultimately irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/36 "2010-12-19T02:16:54Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > it is a politically expedient bill that is grossly, repeat grossly, discriminatory towards one group of illegals over another. i wouldn’t be upset if it passed, but i’m not exactly upset that it passed, either. ugh. “i’m not exactly upset that it didn’t pass, either”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/37 "2010-12-19T02:22:04Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Wow. So that’s the qualification to be “american” huh? I guess you better check with any of the jus sanguinis states and berate them for not enabling their “immigrant children” from being considered members of their society, given the low bar you’ve set. > > the “no fault of their own” line is some tearjerky bullshit, but ultimately irrelevant. Okay explain to me what wrong a child who came with their parents committed that they should be ripped from their home? Don’t give them “they’re illegal and that’s enough” bullshit. Give me an actual reason for that specific case. You can’t. You try to say “we’ll they’re class x and all x are bad”. And you’re too thick to get that maybe not all x are bad. Maybe they’re part of that class for reasons that don’t make them “bad”. We don’t throw people in jail for killing in self defense. We don’t punish children for the crimes of their parents either, unless they’re Mexican. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/38 "2010-12-19T02:29:57Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > We don’t punish children for the crimes of their parents either, unless they’re Mexican. No, but we don’t open up the public kitty and ensure that they’re not harmed by it, either. (i’m referring here to my example below. i’m not suggesting that DREAM kids are now welfare queens) How do you think a garden variety child-whose-parents-were-convicted-bank-robbers-and-is-now-in-a-group-home would fare? Do you think society’s inaction in ensuring that that child doesn’t suffer from his parents’ misdeeds is likewise “punishing” the child for the parent’s acts? That throwaway phrase has only ever meant a very, very narrow thing: not directly penalizing the child for the parent’s acts, either criminally (with jail) or civilly (by debt). it doesn’t mean (failing to) affirmatively (aid) them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/39 "2010-12-19T02:38:10Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Just goes to show you that most people who complain about illegal immigrants don’t really want anybody to be here legally either. How, exactly, does this show that they don’t want “anybody” be here legally? Can you give us a cite that shows that more than 50% of the people who complain about illegal immigrants don’t want to allow legal immigration? Or did you just make that up? Seriously, dude, why do you post some absolute nonsense as the first sentence in the first reply to the OP, thus derailing the entire discussion? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641/40 "2010-12-19T02:40:12Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > No, but we don’t open up the public kitty and ensure that they’re not harmed by it, either. (i’m referring here to my example below. i’m not suggesting that DREAM kids are now welfare queens) > > How do you think a garden variety child-whose-parents-were-convicted-bank-robbers-and-is-now-in-a-group-home would fare? Do you think society’s inaction in ensuring that that child doesn’t suffer from his parents’ misdeeds is likewise “punishing” the child for the parent’s acts? If you mean that society should do it’s best to make sure that child grows up to be a happy, healthy adult, functional in society. Then yes I do. > [@](#): > > That throwaway phrase has only ever meant a very, very narrow thing: not directly penalizing the child for the parent’s acts, either criminally (with jail) or civilly (by debt). it doesn’t mean affirmatively aiding them. So children who’s parents are in jail are thrown into the streets to be beggars? Oh wait no they’re not. I’m not sure if you’re trolling, bigoted, or just really ignorant very disturbing ways. However have fun with it, my points are made, and I’m done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-act-fails/564641.md?page=3)