# "Dream Defenders" month-long sit-in in Florida State Capitol continues **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195 "2013-08-14T06:18:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/21 "2013-08-14T16:49:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s certainly simple enough for me, because I was instilled with values by my parents and community that included obedience to the law, rejection of violence and the honor culture, respect for women and avoidance of unplanned pregnancy, and the importance of education and delayed gratification. Also, I had a ready alternative to a life of crime: a life of gainful employment. > > Not everyone benefited from that worldview or those prospects, however. Transmitting those values and creating employment prospects are worthy goals, though the Dream Defenders site is rather silent on values and family, and long on anti-corporate rhetoric, e.g. . “Our schools are falling apart, our job prospects are low, and our communities are caught in a cycle of incarceration. All to satisfy the greed of a corporate class seeking to further disfranchise us at every turn.” > > Repealing Stand Your Ground won’t make a measurable difference in the lives of the people the Dream Defenders claim to represent, and it certainly has nothing to do with this “corporate class” and their greed, which somehow destroys schools and employment prospects. You hit the nail on the head. The problem with this movement is that it is doomed to failure no matter how many people they register to vote. That is because they are trying to fix cultural problems with political solutions. It is relatively easy to get a bunch of people mad at a group of outsiders you decide to scapegoat. However, if every for profit prison went out of business tonight, tomorrow morning life would be no better for 99.999% of the community they claim to represent. However if the culture changed overnight so that education was important, criminality was shameful, people got married before having kids and stayed together after, life for the impoverished would get alot better very quickly and permanently for huge numbers of people. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/22 "2013-08-14T16:53:04Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > You hit the nail on the head. The problem with this movement is that it is doomed to failure no matter how many people they register to vote. That is because they are trying to fix cultural problems with political solutions. They are trying to change laws. If the laws change, that is success all by itself. If that has the intended consequences, that is **more** success. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/23 "2013-08-14T16:56:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They are trying to change laws. If the laws change, that is success all by itself. If that has the intended consequences, that is **more** success. They are trying to improve the “black and brown” community, and in particular the younger generation of that community, per their mission statement. Changing laws is the method they have chosen to do so, but I also question how effective it will be in serving their goal. Certainly some changes would help: decriminalizing drugs, for instance, or school voucher programs (though I’d be surprised if the Dream Defenders support that). ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/24 "2013-08-14T16:59:44Z")
Also, bit of good news for the movement: the Dream Defenders take issue with an “increasingly underfunded education system”. Starting in 2012, the state increased its education budget by [$2 billion.](http://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2013/05/22/report-florida-among-the-cheapest-states-in-spending-per-student/) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/25 "2013-08-14T18:04:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Also, bit of good news for the movement: the Dream Defenders take issue with an “increasingly underfunded education system”. Starting in 2012, the state increased its education budget by [$2 billion.](http://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2013/05/22/report-florida-among-the-cheapest-states-in-spending-per-student/) Also per pupil spending has gone up 38% in the last twelve years after you adjust for inflation. Education Week ranks Florida as the sixth best state in educational quality of its K-12 system. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/26 "2013-08-14T18:12:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Also per pupil spending has gone up 38% in the last twelve years after you adjust for inflation. Education Week ranks Florida as the sixth best state in educational quality of its K-12 system. Ah! Excellent. The Dream Defenders should probably drop the word “increasingly” from their statement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/27 "2013-08-14T18:19:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Have they got a chance of success? And might they inspire imitators in other states? I asked similar questions about Occupy Wall Street in its early days, and my own answer was that their lack of organization and focus would be fatal to any real chances of success. They may possibly register that many voters – but I’d be quite surprised. And I predict that they won’t see the SYG law overturned, if that’s even really a goal. What, specifically, are their other measurable goals? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/28 "2013-08-14T19:53:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I asked similar questions about Occupy Wall Street in its early days, and my own answer was that their lack of organization and focus would be fatal to any real chances of success. Well, the DDs at least do not lack **focus.** As for organization . . . too soon to tell; we’ll have to wait and see. > [@Bricker](#): > > What, specifically, are their other measurable goals? > [@](#): > > In addition to fighting Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law, the group hopes new legislation will address school-based arrests and exclusionary disciplines, “zero tolerance” policies, analysis of school-based arrest data, and police training on racial and bias-based profiling. Measurable. Not quantifiable, but if the legislature takes any of the desired action at all on any of these, that is a measure of success. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/29 "2013-08-15T01:43:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, the DDs at least do not lack **focus.** As for organization . . . too soon to tell; we’ll have to wait and see. > > Measurable. Not quantifiable, but if the legislature takes any of the desired action at all on any of these, that is a measure of success. I take credit for Wisconsin’s Voter ID bill. I’m sure it’s due to my spirited defense of Voter ID here on the SDMB that the bill passed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/30 "2013-08-15T02:36:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I take credit for Wisconsin’s Voter ID bill. I’m sure it’s due to my spirited defense of Voter ID here on the SDMB that the bill passed. Don’t forget that they have Jesse Jackson and Harry Belafonte on their side. I guess Noam Chomsky was busy that weekend. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/31 "2013-08-15T04:07:30Z")
When’s the last time a protest in the United States even partially met their goals? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/32 "2013-08-15T16:33:11Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > When’s the last time a protest in the United States even partially met their goals? [1994, and the Republican Revolution, comes to mind.](http://www.amazon.com/Storming-Gates-Protest-Politics-Republican/dp/0316080381/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376584006&sr=8-1&keywords=Storming+the+Gates%3A+Protest+Politics+and+the+Republican+Revival) From the author: > [@](#): > > The crime bill in an election year looks like a gimme for the president. I mean, the president has proposed a crime bill; he’s beginning to take the issue away from Republicans. And most Republicans on the Hill, I think, did not believe that they could defeat that bill. But through a coalition of grass-roots organizations, the NRA being a particularly important one, revved up people who were suspicious of government, who were angry at the notion that they were going to put gun controls in and created an anti-crime bill coalition that ultimately blocked the bill in the House, forced the president to scramble and, in some ways, helped to change the whole character of the 1994 elections. > > I mean, in talking to people who were doing campaigns, that moment in August when that crime bill was defeated on the House floor on a procedural motion-- it didn’t ultimately defeat the bill, but it stopped the bill–the world changed for a lot of people. And I know one consultant said to me one of his candidates, a Democratic candidate, just went right down beginning that weekend. It didn’t stop the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, but that was the last gun-control law to be passed by the Federal Government to date. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/33 "2013-08-15T16:44:32Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > When’s the last time a protest in the United States even partially met their goals? See [Brooks Brothers Riot.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot) ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/34 "2013-08-16T20:39:01Z")
[They ended their protest yesterday after 31 days.](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/dream-defenders-ending-capitol-protest/2136646) They gave it the old college try, but the Stand Your Ground Law is just too damned popular in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/35 "2013-08-16T21:25:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Have they got a chance of success? And might they inspire imitators in other states? Any thoughts on the matter? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/36 "2013-08-16T21:36:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Any thoughts on the matter? We’ll be hearing from them again, more than once, before November 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/37 "2013-08-17T00:38:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We’ll be hearing from them again, more than once, before November 2014. Ok. Any thoughts on their success – you know, the question you asked the reader to ponder? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/38 "2013-08-17T01:23:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. > > Any thoughts on their success – you know, the question you asked the reader to ponder? Not immediately. They did get a pledge from the Speaker of the House to hold a special hearing on SYG this fall, and they’ll be there, but, it’s still a Pub-controlled legislature in both houses, not much will be done. The value of it is refocusing attention on their issues. I expect all this to have some effects direct and indirect on the political climate for the 2014 election, and none of it good for the Pubs. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/39 "2013-08-17T02:15:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not immediately. They did get a pledge from the Speaker of the House to hold a special hearing on SYG this fall, and they’ll be there, but, it’s still a Pub-controlled legislature in both houses, not much will be done. The value of it is refocusing attention on their issues. I expect all this to have some effects direct and indirect on the political climate for the 2014 election, and none of it good for the Pubs. That’s… vague, couched in blandly emotional terms, with no particular meaning. I don’t mean to insult, but all I’m getting here is that you want to “Raise Consciousness” and think these people did so. Is this correct? And are you honestly sure they didn’t harm their own supposed cause, either by looking like mouthy and invasive jerks or distracting from the actual issue they’re nominally focused upon? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195/40 "2013-08-17T03:06:07Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > That’s… vague, couched in blandly emotional terms, with no particular meaning. I don’t mean to insult, but all I’m getting here is that you want to “Raise Consciousness” and think these people did so. Is this correct? And are you honestly sure they didn’t harm their own supposed cause, either by looking like mouthy and invasive jerks or distracting from the actual issue they’re nominally focused upon? Yes, I’m honestly sure they didn’t, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dream-defenders-month-long-sit-in-in-florida-state-capitol-continues/666195.md?page=3)